Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[pablo d]

What I want to know is:

If christians get their morals from the bible/god, then are all acts inherently amoral until measured by the bible? i.e. rape/murder is not immoral because they are bad things to do, they are immoral because the bible says so (not that it actually really does lol, but you get my drift).

Fundies always say that atheists are without morals because they have no moral yardstick (such as the bible) and can just make morals on an ad-hoc basis which isn't really a basis for morality at all because it's subjective and ever-changing. I think the opposite is closer to the truth though - christians don't have morals; they merely borrow someone else's. It also gets a tad disgusting IMO when you consider that the pure christian view of any act, be it rape, murder, stealing etc, does not have any inherent 'good' or 'bad' quality to it, it can only be judged by the moral look-up chart in the bible.

tl;dr FU bible

[Black Heart]

Just extrapolating from what he posted above. he's gullible (nearly became a mormon) and follows the cliched "i was bad, found god now I'm good" template. it works for prisoners just the same.

Then I googled http://www.getsome.co.nz/archive/index.php/t-21181.html?

Might be harsh, but it's the old jesus loves you, but i think your a cunt story.

[swindle]

Fuck reading all that shit about some douche-bag.

[Kayne]

Wow, Life back then was a lot more emotional.

Meh. dramas lol

[Tiwaking!]

What I want to know is:

If christians get their morals from the bible/god, then are all acts inherently amoral until measured by the bible? i.e. rape/murder is not immoral because they are bad things to do, they are immoral because the bible says so (not that it actually really does lol, but you get my drift).

Fundies always say that atheists are without morals because they have no moral yardstick (such as the bible) and can just make morals on an ad-hoc basis which isn't really a basis for morality at all because it's subjective and ever-changing. I think the opposite is closer to the truth though - christians don't have morals; they merely borrow someone else's. It also gets a tad disgusting IMO when you consider that the pure christian view of any act, be it rape, murder, stealing etc, does not have any inherent 'good' or 'bad' quality to it, it can only be judged by the moral look-up chart in the bible.

tl;dr FU bible

Atheists do not have absolute morals.

But Christians do.

Unfortunately: Their morals are unrealistic, impossible to abide by, and completely impossible to understand. Even the Bible says that this is the case.

Because they come from a source that is unrealistic, impossible to abide by, and completely impossible to understand. The entire first part of Summa Theologica is devoted to and attempt to justify god and hence the morals which come from there.

Just extrapolating from what he posted above. he's gullible (nearly became a mormon) and follows the cliched "i was bad, found god now I'm good" template. it works for prisoners just the same.

Not a lot of Atheists in prison. A whole bunch of religious people though.

Makes you think.

[Who_ate_my_rice]

lol sorry Retardo i understand where you're coming from  you should stop punishing yourself and cease reading my posts

who_ate_my_rice needs gods forgiveness for being a dick. if god doesn't exist then how could he ever feel good about himself. His character flaws prevent him from being able to accept his state of mind is his only option to make him happy. Not because god exists, but because he's acts like a worthless piece of $#@! without beleiving some super being forgives him, even though he can't forgive himself. Probably used to hack at games too.

I was happy before.  I didn't need God but i was searching for him.  He just made my life more awesome!  You're making assumptions about my character Black heart  

Yer i hacked 2142, its no secret.  Infact its been mentioned during scrim commentary hahaha not to mention the old Gamevault Vaultcast  
 

That's a bit harsh and intolerant there BH. You know real or unreal, one still cannot say that belief is a completely bad thing. It is only when it is combined with ignorance or manipulative hands that it becomes so.

Oh, and i'll reply later rice

Cya man.  I'll like to see what i've screwed up
 

What I want to know is:

If christians get their morals from the bible/god, then are all acts inherently amoral until measured by the bible? i.e. rape/murder is not immoral because they are bad things to do, they are immoral because the bible says so (not that it actually really does lol, but you get my drift).

Fundies always say that atheists are without morals because they have no moral yardstick (such as the bible) and can just make morals on an ad-hoc basis which isn't really a basis for morality at all because it's subjective and ever-changing. I think the opposite is closer to the truth though - christians don't have morals; they merely borrow someone else's. It also gets a tad disgusting IMO when you consider that the pure christian view of any act, be it rape, murder, stealing etc, does not have any inherent 'good' or 'bad' quality to it, it can only be judged by the moral look-up chart in the bible.

tl;dr FU bible

lol Pablo i disagree with people who say that atheist have no morals.  Just like Black heart realises that make assumptions about people is silly.  he doesn't need a book to tell him that he's learned it from his life experiences.    although i might be making an assumption here myself.

Your parents will raise you with a set of morals correct? If you were born in the jungle like some wolf cub you wouldn't know that stealing a piece of meat from somewhere was wrong.  its just survival.    When you get older you realise that hey i shouldn't steal this pen from the store because its not might.  You didn't need a book to tell you that.  You later learn that every action has its consequence

Harm to anyone, believer or not, would be horrible to anyone.  Unless you have a screw loose.  You don't need the bible to tell you that people are born with an inherit sense of right and wrong to a degree but it does

Romans 2:15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them

so even christian fundamentalists cant disagree

 

Just extrapolating from what he posted above. he's gullible (nearly became a mormon) and follows the cliched "i was bad, found god now I'm good" template. it works for prisoners just the same.

Being gullible is what got me into trouble at the mormon church indeed.  Now i've learnt that you have to verify everything.  Just like what retardo, dirty ape, pablo and most people i encounter want to do.  Just because i say, hey this is the way, they are right in saying.  NO WAIT!  This sounds silly to me, tell me why your way is better than my way, or You're wrong and this is why.

And whats wrong with it working for prisoners?  

What happened to you in your life that would make you react this way??   Do you want to talk about it?

Then I googled http://www.getsome.co.nz/archive/index.php/t-21181.html?

Might be harsh, but it's the old jesus loves you, but i think your a $#@! story.

I can see i'll be looking forward to some great posts by Black Heart

ok sleep times  ＿ﾉ乙(､ﾝ､)＿

[Who_ate_my_rice]

Atheists do not have absolute morals.

But Christians do.

Unfortunately: Their morals are unrealistic, impossible to abide by, and completely impossible to understand. Even the Bible says that this is the case.

 

Lucky we have the blood of Jesus to wash away all sins! He took all our sins to the cross.  "Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Romans 8:34

its true  Feel free to read here  http://www.jcblog.net/romans/8/333-romans-834-jesus-is-at-the-right-hand-of-god-interceding-for-us

also its not get out of jail free card.  We have to try and not sin.  we have to leave our old self behind and start a new.  

John 8:1-11

1 but Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
   2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

   But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

   9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

   11 “No one, sir,” she said.

   “Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

Now did she leave her life of sin?  Or did she go back?   If she followed him and did leave her life of sin she saved

Because they come from a source that is unrealistic, impossible to abide by, and completely impossible to understand. The entire first part of Summa Theologica is devoted to and attempt to justify god and hence the morals which come from there.

Not a lot of Atheists in prison. A whole bunch of religious people though.

Makes you think.

Do you have any statistics for this Tiwa?  I find this hard to believe.

If its true is it because they find God in prison?  Is it because the whole world has turned their back on them and they reach out to the only person who can help them?  If they sin no longer and walk with Christ thats awesome.  

The other side of this coin is if they want to look like they've changed, the parole board might look kindly on them and then once they are out jail do they go back to their old ways.

If you're a christian you're committed to try and be Christ like.  For the rest of your days.  not just untill the storm leaves and forget about during good times.  

A friend of mine shared with me the other day that the bible was lifeless and dry to him.  And only after he accepted Christ did the book come alive to him and he was able to get encouragement from it.


I remember an interview on the tv 3 website where they interviewed Tai Harawira about his time in prison.  He shared that when someone asked him to kill someone just because he was a Christian, Tai said, thats a good enough reason for me.  Until he was actually face to face with the target who was strong in his faith.  He ended up coming to Christ and working wonders in his community


ok im fallign asleep.  i should have gone to bed before =_=

Christianitys core belief is so.

Jesus died on the cross for us all.  

Romans 5:6-10
 6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous person, though for a good person someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

1 Corinthians 15:4
4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

thus conquering death. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

It also says in  1 Corinthians 15:

14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain…17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

but from some extra-biblical sources to support this i've found http://enzocortes.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/if-christ-aint-resurrect-then-we-wasted-our-lives-a-post-easter-blog/

there are other sources out there but this will do for this post.  If you want more do a quick google search.

this testimony is pretty awesome

[Tiwaking!]

Lucky we have the blood of Jesus to wash away all sins! He took all our sins to the cross.  "Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-more than that, who was raised to life-is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Romans 8:34

Intercession is a dodgy issue in Christian Theology. I suggest you take up this argument with a priest. Or, even better, a Rabbi. Or, even better than that, a Rebbe.

Do you have any statistics for this Tiwa?  I find this hard to believe.

Why yes I do Mr Rice!
Link to HTML view of PDF

Prison population statistics
Standard Note:  SN/SG/4334
Last updated:  23 February 2012
Author:  Gavin Berman
Section  Social and General Statistics
 
 
This note provides a detailed summary of the prison population in England and Wales with a
more limited analysis of the situation in Scotland.
The prison population in England and Wales, including those held in Immigration Removal
Centres, was at a record high of 88,179 prisoners on 2 December 2011. The Scottish prison
population reached a record high of 8,301 on 7 November 2011.

On 30 June 2010, latest published data, there were 7,983 prisoners in Scottish prisoners, of
which 96% were white, 1.3% black and 1.2% of Indian, Pakistani or Bangladeshi origin.
Prisoners of a Christian faith accounted for 58% of the prison population with 38% stating
that they did not belong to any religious group.

38% of the prison population is Atheist?? My goodness that is a lot!!!

But wait, why is it 'No religion' instead of 'Atheist' or 'Agnostic'?
http://thoughtfulfaith.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/atheists-in-prison/

England and Wales

A higher percentage of English and Welsh inmates claim to have no religion in comparison to the general population. According to the March 2000 report, Religion in Prisons, 31.9% of inmates claimed to have “no religion”, of whom 0.2% who specifically answered that they were “atheists” and 0.1% who answered that they were “agnostic”. The national census, 15.5% of people in the general population answered that they had “no religion” and 7.3% gave no answer at all. Therefore between 15.5% and 22.8% of the general population were atheists, in comparison with  31.9% of inmates.

The moral of the story is: Dont ask if they are 'irreligious', ask if they are Atheist or Agnostic.

also its not get out of jail free card.  We have to try and not sin.  we have to leave our old self behind and start a new.

Southern Baptists would disagree. Once saved, always saved:


Also, as there are the cases of the Unforgivable Sins, which I committed years ago meaning: The Christian religion has absolutely no point in my life. Ever.

Matthew 12:30-32: “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”

So. Your Bible apparently discredits a whole bunch of things you say, but you say that people should "read the Bible"?

[Who_ate_my_rice]

Intercession is a dodgy issue in Christian Theology. I suggest you take up this argument with a priest. Or, even better, a Rabbi. Or, even better than that, a Rebbe.

Nope~!  Don't have to go to a priest, Rabbi or Rebbe.  I can just talk to Jesus.   Whats the point in talking to one of those if i can go straight to the source?  This is why Jesus died on the cross so we can go straight to God.  

In the old testament times, they'd have to go to the high priest and offer a blood sacrifice on your behalf.   Jesus is the ultimate blood sacrifice that ends all sacrifices through his death on the cross.

Why yes I do Mr Rice!
Link to HTML view of PDF


38% of the prison population is Atheist?? My goodness that is a lot!!!

But wait, why is it 'No religion' instead of 'Atheist' or 'Agnostic'?
http://thoughtfulfaith.wordpress.com/2010/03/12/atheists-in-prison/

The moral of the story is: Dont ask if they are 'irreligious', ask if they are Atheist or Agnostic.

This is very interesting Tiwa thanks for taking the time to post.  It will be interesting to see other prisoners other than just Scotland.

That second link was very interesting. I also noticed

More up-to-date data is shown in graph below which I made from the House of Commons library report “Prison population statistics“. Both the “no religion” and muslim populations in prison are growing sharply, perhaps reflecting changing religious belief in the wider English community?

I also bring up my point about in-prison conversions again  

People also need to understand that just because they align themselves with a religious organisation doesn't mean they are immediately holy and will never sin.  

Romans 3:23
New International Version (NIV)
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

We're all human and we'll all sin.  You just can't get around it.  Its very hard for me personally but i try my best to keep on the straight and narrow.  Of course i do walk off the path like anyone would but thanks to Jesus i can give him my sins, he takes it.  And throws it away as far as the east is from the west and forgets about it.  

As soon as you call yourself a Christian you're being watched constantly.  As soon as you mess up someone is there to tell you.  


I even have people come into the store claiming they are Christians just so they can try and get discounts on the hire equipment!  My point is some people are Christians/Muslims/Atheists when they want to be.

Interesting thing i read about the other day, when faced with death a lot of peoples faith in one particular thing increases.   There was a plan crash and the only survivor said that people were cursing God, they abandoned their faith and started swearing at God.  So were they true Christians? Or do they just like the name badge?

Southern Baptists would disagree. Once saved, always saved:

I disagree with this totally.  This is Calvinism.  http://www.truthablaze.com/osasrefuted.html

Also, as there are the cases of the Unforgivable Sins, which I committed years ago meaning:

Personally i say that even then God will judge you by your own thoughts.  If you came to him asking for forgiveness he'll know you said what you said out of ignorance and you aren't past forgiveness.  Ofcourse there would be people with greater knowledge of theology out there that will disagree with me, but this is how i feel personally.  I could be totally wrong.

What is the blasphemy that you've committed against the holy spirit???

The Christian religion has absolutely no point in my life. Ever.

All good man.  Im not trying to convert anyone here

So. Your Bible apparently discredits a whole bunch of things you say, but you say that people should "read the Bible"?

Really?  could you point those out to me?  If i'm wrong i'd like to know.  

I'm always learning so it would be easy for me to get things wrong sometimes if i didn't research correctly.  Most of this was stuff i remember.  Could definitely have made errors

oh i got this sent to me this morning.  people's testimonies are always interesting



ok i better clean up the shop lol

[dirtyape]

38% of the prison population is Atheist?? My goodness that is a lot!!!

Surely those stats represent the distribution within the greater population. Or did I miss something?

[Oddball]

Here's my religious view: I am a firm believer that in modern times, if you believe in Jesus/God then you have mental illness; it comes from a desperate need for someone to love you or the need to believe your life has purpose and what you do actually counts or means something. It is pretty much the same thing as having an imaginary friend as a child.

And in saying that, I have enough experience with mental illness to actually know what I'm talking about.

In the past (nearer to medieval times and it's purpose of creation) I'd of said that it is a means to control people through superstition and fear. And it was very successful. It even managed to make rape and murder into something righteous rather than rape and murder. It's still used today to gain political power.

All in all, it completely disgusts me. I'm not sharing this to offend people it is simply my belief which I have the right to voice; I find a lot of beliefs that Christians voice very offensive so if they can speak their minds then so can I

[dirtyape]

Oddball, I don't know if you can honestly judge the entire spectrum of belief in such a manner. Just because a specific religion does not measure up does not mean there is no such thing as "god". I presume you are just talking about a particular religion which you are familiar with here, Christianity. Before you can rule out all gods they must first be defined, hence I believe the only intellectually honest approach is that of the ignostic. "God" is a theological noncogitism until a religion gives it shape. Once it has shape you may honestly form an opinion, but you cannot honestly say that there will never be a description of god which is true, for that would be presumptive.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that an intellectually honest answer to whether there is a god or not would probably be: if there is then is it has not been described yet.

[Retardobot]

Here's my religious view: I am a firm believer that in modern times, if you believe in Jesus/God then you have mental illness; it comes from a desperate need for someone to love you or the need to believe your life has purpose and what you do actually counts or means something. It is pretty much the same thing as having an imaginary friend as a child.

Is that just for the Christian faith? Or do you believe that anyone who practices in some sort of religion that holds a deity above all else adheres to a mental illness? I'm not trying to troll or bait, I'm just curious to see how far your 'mental illness' blanket goes.

Would you consider someone who lives by Buddha's teachings to be mentally ill?

EDIT: Ninja'd by DA.

[Black Heart]

God created evil. Some of gods angels turned out evil, god created hell before the garden of eden, and humans.
1.If sickness is caused by sin, then why do all forms of life get sickness and disease? Not just humans.

2.Why are fruit trees stricken with blight? Why are honey bees susceptible veroa, kiwifruit PSA ? gods will ?

Also whats this age delusion you have? We live longer now (in the western world anyway) than ever before, thanks to science and medicine. And guess what science proves our aging is consistant with other similar mamals.
3.Is god punishing them with sickness and short lives too ?
4.How old do you think earth is rice?
To be honest I'd rather have those questions answered than any breakdown of why rice is like he is.

[dirtyape]

BH, you should probably call him Yahweh or Jehovah if you are talking about the Christian deity. "God" is too broad a term to have any meaning. And also, referring to Yahweh as the singular description of "God" infers that there is no potential for other descriptions, and this means you are indoctrinated to the Christian theology because you acknowledge no other potential.

A bit nit picky, I know.

[Who_ate_my_rice]

What Christian beliefs do you find offensive Oddball?

[Who_ate_my_rice]

God created evil. Some of gods angels turned out evil, god created hell before the garden of eden, and humans.
1.If sickness is caused by sin, then why do all forms of life get sickness and disease? Not just humans.

2.Why are fruit trees stricken with blight? Why are honey bees susceptible veroa, kiwifruit PSA ? gods will ? [/quote]

Already answered this.  This was because of the fall of man.  One action between Adam and Eve and God caused corruption of the cosmos.  And so death came to all things.

Also whats this age delusion you have? We live longer now (in the western world anyway) than ever before, thanks to science and medicine. And guess what science proves our aging is consistant with other similar mamals.

No 100 years old is short compared to the 700+ years of the people back then

3.Is god punishing them with sickness and short lives too ?

You're saying that people who have sickness are getting punished by God.  This is false.

4.How old do you think earth is rice?

over 6000 years old

To be honest I'd rather have those questions answered than any breakdown of why rice is like he is.

I am what i am in God.  And im going to glorify him no matter what.  And he's real.   Because he can turn your black heart into a white heart because he forgives all sin.

You can say what you like about me, Jesus loves you

[dirtyape]

What Christian beliefs do you find offensive Oddball?

There are quite a lot Rice that I personally find offensive, too many to post. Not only morally offensive but also intellectually. Things like Yahweh telling his followers they are allowed to rape, murder, have slaves, commit human sacrifice, that sort of thing. Mostly old testament stuff i'll admit.

But probably the biggest thing I dislike about Christianity is the ignorance of most of the followers. Most have no idea the history of their religion, what preceded it, the political environment it evolved in, how it came about, why they believe it, and why it is so popular. To me blind faith is kinda abhorrent.

That and the bit about condemning anyone to an eternity in hell if they choose not to acknowledge and worship Yahweh/Jesus, essentially turning him into a slave lord of truly epic proportions. Free will? Choose to kneel or suffer in eternity, not that free apparently.

[Who_ate_my_rice]

There are quite a lot Rice that I personally find offensive, too many to post. Not only morally offensive but also intellectually. Things like Yahweh telling his followers they are allowed to rape, murder, have slaves, commit human sacrifice, that sort of thing. Mostly old testament stuff i'll admit.

But probably the biggest thing I dislike about Christianity is the ignorance of most of the followers. Most have no idea the history of their religion, what preceded it, the political environment it evolved in, how it came about, why they believe it, and why it is so popular. To me blind faith is kinda abhorrent.

That and the bit about condemning anyone to an eternity in hell if they choose not to acknowledge and worship Yahweh/Jesus, essentially turning him into a slave lord of truly epic proportions. Free will? Choose to kneel or suffer in eternity, not that free apparently.

Can you please qualify these statements?

[dirtyape]

Sure, although I do not really want to enter debate regarding them as I have crossed those swords many times, but I'll give you a couple.

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.

Also Judges 21, 1-24, the slaughter of a village and the rape of 400 young woman to provide wives to the Benjamites.

And many others. A couple should be all that is required to qualify the statements.

[Tiwaking!]

Would you consider someone who lives by Buddha's teachings to be mentally ill?

If they believed in the divinity of Buddha: Yes. Yes they are.
Basics of Buddhism

Generally Buddhism does not believe in a personal God or a divine being, it does not have worship, praying to, or praising of a divine being (although some sects do.) It offers no form of redemption, forgiveness, no heavenly hope, or a final judgment to those practicing its system. Buddhism is a moral philosophy, an ethical way to live for the here and now of this world to gain the ultimate state. It has more in common with humanism and atheism than its original religion Hinduism it separated from. But Buddhism is not atheism just because they don’t believe in a personal God. It is more like pantheism, there is a impersonal force the void which is the ultimate.

[Oddball]

Oddball, I don't know if you can honestly judge the entire spectrum of belief in such a manner. Just because a specific religion does not measure up does not mean there is no such thing as "god". I presume you are just talking about a particular religion which you are familiar with here, Christianity. Before you can rule out all gods they must first be defined, hence I believe the only intellectually honest approach is that of the ignostic. "God" is a theological noncogitism until a religion gives it shape. Once it has shape you may honestly form an opinion, but you cannot honestly say that there will never be a description of god which is true, for that would be presumptive.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that an intellectually honest answer to whether there is a god or not would probably be: if there is then is it has not been described yet.

To clarify, I was speaking specifically about Christianity - the belief in THEIR god.

I've never seen the existence of a deity to be completely far-fetched. But the one defined by Christianity in my books is nothing more than an imaginary friend for adults. I have mental illness myself and I know what it's like to need something "more" to be out there or a desperate need for acceptance/love, someone who can understand all your problems and wont judge you for it etc. - He's the very depiction of what an emotionally unstable or even just a lonely human needs - acceptance, love, and forgiveness.

I'm sure what I said is provocative but it was literally only what I believe, even if it does seem provocative.

God created evil. Some of gods angels turned out evil, god created hell before the garden of eden, and humans.

Furthering this point:

Even assuming god is real: Evil is not a being, evil does not even exist beyond a perception of things people do that are considered morally wrong. It is a description and if god created every wrong doing that enters our head then he is the one to be punished. *WE* create evil in our heads when we think of doing something 'morally wrong'.

What Christian beliefs do you find offensive Oddball?

This is a big one for me: I'm sure we've all heard this from others simply having a go at Christians but it still possesses infallible truth; Incest goes against what your god teaches, if we all spawn from Adam and Eve every single human on this planet is guilty of incest. Sorry, but the concept of everyone having the same ancestor is DISGUSTING. Or... do people think it's okay, far enough down the line? Incest is NEVER okay. That in itself is an insult to the ENTIRE human race and Christianity has no right to declare that without proven evidence and a lot of them would like to think the bible is evidence of everything they preach but there is no evidence of the bible being more than an astronomy book with horrific stories inside.

I find the mere idea of someone having power and dominion over my soul offensive. If I die, and your god exists, he doesn't have the right to torture me for all eternity, I will never give another being regardless of who or what it is that much power over me and doing so is pathetic because it means you can't stand on your own two feet. It's pathetic to ask this 'being' for forgiveness after committing a crime then the victim hasn't forgiven you as one of many examples to why god is a bad influence on society. If some bastard ever murders me and his god forgives him and alleviates his wrong-doing, I'll come back from the afterlife to shoot him in the face just so he can see that there's no one to forgive him and his guilt is deserved.

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Now imagine this: You're raised as a christian, you live your entire life as a christian and devote yourself to 'his' purpose. Then you die. And there is an afterlife and there is no god. All the pain saved from your god and his forgiveness and supposed love will be nothing in comparison to know that you lost your ONLY entire life to false belief that originated from an idea to control people through superstition and fear.

I said it before and I will say it again, a religion that was created with the purpose of trading the lives of innocents for power, money, and land is not okay. Think of all the lives that have been taken, destroyed, or affected negatively by that religion and ask yourself what those people would think knowing it thrives today, and that people support it? Ignorance is not an excuse in today's world, but if they're lucky, it will be in the afterlife. Assuming their is one.

Regardless of how provocative these things might be, they're still true. And if the victors write the history books, then I wonder what really happened if this is what the history books say when its christianity that won.

[Oddball]

There are quite a lot Rice that I personally find offensive, too many to post. Not only morally offensive but also intellectually. Things like Yahweh telling his followers they are allowed to rape, murder, have slaves, commit human sacrifice, that sort of thing. Mostly old testament stuff i'll admit.

Can you clarify something for me?

The old testament was written, in christian belief, by god?

So then, do christians believe that he came back to write the new testament?

If so, it was once okay to rape, murder, have slaves, and commit human sacrifice, then he had a change of heart?

Or has it, by god, always been okay until people themselves decided that god is wrong?

Maybe they thought he accidentally wrote that?

There is no justification that makes it acceptable beyond the old testament being a complete and utter forgery

I could probably google it, but I'd like the source of information to come from people who's words have actual value to *myself* through my knowledge of them.




Excuse the double post, completely different sub-topics.


Edit: You know, I just had a thought. If an author who lived in the times of any time from the existence of god until the day the world started to grow decent morals, decided to write a true story about a girl from that time it would in all likelihood be one of the saddest stories to ever exist. Now imagine writing that story for thousands and thousands of people whos lives were destroyed. Even the people who werent killed or raped, what about all the relatives and families that would of been affected, the ones who lost their homes, it would be safe to say that anyone who wasn't gaining power through christianity at that time had their lives completely devastated. Even the kill count couldn't tell us how many lives were actually ruined. It is probably apparent this might be relating to the crusades and while that is a period that was horrifying, I'm actually relating to everything in existence that was affected in the proposed timeline at the beginning of this paragraph.


here's a thought: why is it when the crusades are mentioned the christians in any debate will brush it away as if it doesn't pertain to christianity?

[Oddball]

And triple post because I remembered an old conversation I had while staying at a friend's with his flatmate. It is something he brought up and explained a lot better than I can from a memory of what he said, but here goes:

He said that if a Christian says to you: "God is real, you should believe in God."
And you reply saying: "He is not real."
The Christian will generally say: "Can you prove that he is not real?"

This was said flatmate's take on it:

The atheist is saying "God is not real" and the Christian is saying "God is real". Both can both say "prove it". The atheist doesn't have to and he wins the argument, but the Christian does or he loses the argument. Why? Because the atheist isn't proposing anything. Imagine an artist's canvas, it's white, it's empty, the atheist brings nothing and therefore doesn't have to prove anything but the Christian is actually proposing a concept of there being a God and therefore, the Christian has to prove there is a God or he loses the argument.

Can you prove that the rainbow colored 500 foot tall clown-toad is not real? OF COURSE NOT. You can't prove he's not real because he's not real - there is nothing there to disprove. That is my take on it.

So what does this mean? It means, as there is literally zero evidence of God ever having existed (why italicized and bold? because it's important to note that evidence has to be infallible and not something that can promote belief in one direction or the other) it can not be proven, and the answer to the argument "Is God real?" is "No, he is not real."

[Tiwaking!]

Even assuming god is real: Evil is not a being, evil does not even exist beyond a perception of things people do that are considered morally wrong.

Too not believe evil is real is evil.

CHECK MATE ATHEIST!!!