Get Some
General => General Chat => Intellectual Discussion => Topic started by: Bell on August 27, 2012, 07:10:00 am
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Alright lads the forums are a bit dull at the moment and I'm currently living in the West Bank so figure why not open this can of worms again.
The last 4 months have been a big eye opener for me, there is a lot of subtle shit going on here that doesn't make international news.
From what I can gather the Israeli Government continues to expand current settlements and actively support the creation of new ones referred to as 'outposts'.
The 2 state solution is a total scam due to Israel currently doing the complete opposite of what it should be doing if it was serious about it.
The military controls everything in the west-bank, they constantly go into areas they are supposed to be under PA control and the areas they are legally allowed to control are vast.
The status quo is in Israels favour and is generally working for them so they have no interest in any serious negotiations.
Meanwhile Israel is under increasing international pressure as the UN nations by a huge majority disagree with Israeli policies, they have lost Turkey as an Ally and may lose more to the Arab spring, such as Egypt.
The boycott movement is also gaining momentum with South Africa requiring labeling on Settlement products and some European countries expressing interest in doing the same.
My daily life is relatively normal apart from seeing military everywhere. I have to get my passport checked and sometimes questioned by the IDF at stationary or mobile checkpoints and everyday f15's and f-16s fly over my house.
I even saw what must have been dogfight training between 6 or so fighter jets right over my head when I was in the desert one night.
Here are some of my more interesting pics.
The town I'm living in
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/l1qif1pu.dgq.jpg)
The wall, taken from the Bethlehem side in the West bank
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/pz0rf1od.zrj.jpg)
Settlers at their bus stop in the middle of the West Bank being guarded by IDF
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/oe3b3cxm.nvi.jpg)
IDF patrolling a settlement located inside the heart of the major Palestinian city of Hebron
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/oxhddy4s.r1j.jpg)
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Were you able to get a room in the Nativity Inn?
Or are they only full at Xmas?
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have you though about asking any patrols to dance to lady gaga?
also i dont see Israel changing its attitude until the US stands up to it - and even then its not a guarantee that a proper peace solution will be implemented
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Or are they only full at Xmas?
This is most likely the case lol
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have you though about asking any patrols to dance to lady gaga?
Not so much, they generally have their i'm a serious 20 year old with a gun faces on.
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Can't say I've ever really read up on this - seems to be a lot of history there.
From the outset though, I've always had this sort of affinity to the plight of the Palestinians; seems like they're getting a shit deal in their own country.
Regardless of whether anyone can be 'right' or 'wrong', it seems Israel is taking a really unsustainable approach to the issue (seemingly because they have much more leverage).
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What kind of Job do you have over there?
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He fires rockets over the wall.
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I'm doing some voluntary work for the UN, and my girlfriend is working for an Aid agency here.
I'm in the process of getting a proper job so might be leaving soon.
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Few more pics
Me and a danish volunteer in the settler area in Hebron
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/og1r043v.ddn.jpg)
The Wall and IDF Guard tower overlooking a refugee camp in Bethlehem
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9871/20120605174656.jpg)
View from Bethlehem of a large Israeli settlement which is really just an extension of Jerusalem in the West Bank
(http://i46.tinypic.com/uy03q.jpg)
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wow thanks bell, brings back my 6form history study of the Palestinian conflict.
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This sort of thing could be on the cards for me in the near future.
Partner talked with me a couple of months ago. She's the humanitarian type and asked if I would go with her to an under developed, ravaged country for a few months so she could practice vet as a volunteer. Wasn't to over joyed about the prospect but would do it to support her.
You looking forward to making it out of there, Bell? Or have things become the 'norm' and you've become pretty comfortable?
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As soon as they get this then problem solved http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion
conflict will never be resolved
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Wow, I was there <24 hours and hated every moment of it.
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conflict will never be resolved
That's probably what Israel wants you to think since apathy is working so well for them.
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This sort of thing could be on the cards for me in the near future.
Partner talked with me a couple of months ago. She's the humanitarian type and asked if I would go with her to an under developed, ravaged country for a few months so she could practice vet as a volunteer. Wasn't to over joyed about the prospect but would do it to support her.
You looking forward to making it out of there, Bell? Or have things become the 'norm' and you've become pretty comfortable?
It's pretty comfortable here, the military isn't an issue if you are a foreigner and the Palestinian people are quite nice.
I have always been interested in politics and issues like this so actually being the ground has been extremely interesting for me, so i'm definitely glad i've come.
If I had a steady job instead of just this part time volunteer thing I'd be sticking around longer, But I'm hoping a job I interviewed for last week comes through and I head off to Georgia (the country).
Where does your girlfriend want to go?
My advice is to find countries where you have options, if I wasn't around my GF would go somewhere like Sudan but I'd struggle to find anything to do there at the moment.
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([url]http://iforce.co.nz/i/og1r043v.ddn.jpg[/url])
The respect this man would usually gain by walking around with a massive gun is instantly negated by the little girl style neck sunburn protection hat.
(http://www.incywincy.net/acatalog/floaties_legionnaires_hat_UV_protection_pink.JPG)
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Thanks for posting the pics Bell,what do you do for work if you dont mind me asking?
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I'm just doing some volunteer programming work for the UN that i'm doing from home.
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God those photos are depressing, what a hell hole.
I can't imagine what your state of mind would have to be like to live your life like that. Any loud noise and you would have to change your undies
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Well those are my more dramatic pictures from certain hotspots it's not all like that.
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And so the shit continues...
Now that I have a little bit of knowledge about this conflict it's been interesting to see just how little analysis most of the news organisations are doing on this, they like to put up pretty pictures and maps but don't really give you any insight as to why this is happening.
Most of it has been boiled down to "Hamas fired rockets so Israel assassinated their military commander and is bombing their military sites", which is super simplifying matters.
The more extreme groups like Islamic Jihad have been the ones firing the rockets and they have been doing so for years, every week I was in the west bank I read reports that one of these groups who were not Hamas fired a rocket and every week there were reports that Israel had bombed Gaza.
So to suddenly be up in arms and to claim something needs to be done to defend Israel because they have sat by quietly while being attacked is bullshit, they have been retaliating all year.
From my perspective this sort of came from nowhere, the Israelis decided to assassinate a top Hamas official knowing Hamas would have to react and be forced to try and act tough by firing their pitiful arsenal of weapons.
To me and most of my friends over there this smells like Israel inflaming the situation to help justify something, I'm not sure if it's because there are elections coming up and the right-wing wants to make sure it keeps all the power by showing how 'tough' they are or it is some weird tactic to stop the Palestinians from seeking recognition as a state at the UN.
Either way this won't do anything to keep Israelis safe and will do nothing to solve the conflict and won't help anyone except to enable extremists on both sides to score political points.
That's my take and if you want to read the one article that made a lot of sense to me check out this one http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/11/20121115114058876781.html
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My girlfriend was in Tel Aviv last night but got out this morning and is returning to the west bank now so might have a story to tell.
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Tbh the most interesting aspect of this thread is what you're getting up to, not Israel/Palestine.
Sooo.... What else you been up to in Israel?
Also,
What's happening with the whole Hasidic Jews, getting out of military service much to the disgust of a majority of the Israeli population? Moreover, do you reckon there's any chance of benny's opposition winning the election?
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I'm not in Palestine anymore I'm currently working for transparency international in the Republic of Georgia.
Last I heard on the Hasidic front is their exception is being revoked and they will be forming Hasidic only military units because they can't handle being put in units with women because their religion is so fucked.
I would not want to be a Palestinain when the Hasidic brigade rolls into town :/
To be honest I don't know enough about Israeli public opinion as a whole since I never really got to talk to any of the vast amounts of crazies there.
I'm going to assume since he is promoting settlement building and bombing the shit out of Gaza that means all of the religious types will vote for him.
The left wing is on life support at the moment so I don't have much hope for the next decade.
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Oh sorry, I thought you applied for a job in Georgia while out of the country. ie taking a break from ballot stuffing in Georgia by holidaying in the middle east :P (I didn't examine the post dates)
Yea I wouldn't want to be a Palestinian when any military brigade rolls in :S
Something has to fill in the headlines I guess.
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The general Israeli solider in the west bank is normally pretty decent they are always really young and are put in a shitty situation by having to defend settlers.
They always seemed really bored and more interested in checking their iPhones for messages than causing trouble.
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Well this is new a rocket just hit the west bank a couple of Kms away from my girlfriend, she heard the bang.
Apparently it was aimed at the Israeli parliament building but that's a pretty stupid move considering the area is surrounded by Palestinians.
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i also wonder what would have happened if olde Mitt had won the election last week - i suspect that this might have played out differently
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Really? I speculate it would be the same. Unless you're thinking there is an element of wolf crying in Israel's actions, aimed at the US. That there is something more they want from the US that MITTens would have given and Obama is not.
I suspect it will end with some small victory for Israel, at the cost of some bloodshed and international goodwill for Israel. Bearing in mind I know nothing :P
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i also wonder what would have happened if olde Mitt had won the election last week - i suspect that this might have played out differently
Why? Mitt & the Republicans would support Netanyahu/Isreal more firmly than Obama would, but it's hard to see how Isreal is pulling its punches at the moment.
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I heard the western back Fatah palestinian faction fired the rockets, and israel are taking ot hamas people anyway.
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If none of them believed in an afterlife, it would probably play out a little differently.
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http://edition.cnn.com/video/?/video/bestoftv/2012/11/15/nr-life-in-gaza-strip-seshay-intv.cnn
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sigh.....
Israeli Interior Minister Eli Yishai says "the goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages. Only then will Israel be calm for 40 years," according to Israel's Haaretz website.
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One more before bed.
Israel's foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman: "The only way we can achieve peace and security is to create real deterrence via a crushing response that will make sure they don't try to test us again," he said. "This isn't an all-out war, but an operation with defined goals." If a ground invasion was authorised, Israel would have to "see it through," he said. "This wasn't done during Operation Cast Lead [the 22-day war four years ago], which is why we failed to achieve our goal."
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One more before bed.
Ah MAD - worked real well from the 1950s to 1980s.....
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Why? Mitt & the Republicans would support Netanyahu/Isreal more firmly than Obama would, but it's hard to see how Isreal is pulling its punches at the moment.
since obama/US is moving out of the middle east as they see the pacific at the more pressing/important - this could be a way to remind obama that he cant leave the middle east
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Ah MAD - worked real well from the 1950s to 1980s.....
It is scary how close it got at times. This sends shudders down my spine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83
since obama/US is moving out of the middle east as they see the pacific at the more pressing/important - this could be a way to remind obama that he cant leave the middle east
I guess that is possible. But I don't think Obama is moving out of the Middle East anytime soon. Between Oil, the Suez Canel, and Iran there is plenty of reason for the Middle East to be a strategic concern for a long time to come.
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You missed the Cuban missile crisis.
If you think the future looks gloomy now, it's positively rosy by comparison.
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Ah MAD - worked real well from the 1950s to 1980s.....
It would only be MAD if both sides had the ability to destroy each other. What the fuck can Palestine actually do to Israel? Fuck all. :(
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I'm really digging TYT's commentary atm.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4
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It would only be MAD if both sides had the ability to destroy each other. What the fuck can Palestine actually do to Israel? Fuck all. :(
Palestine in themselves - not a lot, but when you include all the Arab countries that have had bones to pick with Israel then it becomes a lot more of a level playing field.
The Arabs know that in terms of military hardware, the Israelis have the edge and so generally try not to get involved but if Israel stepped over the very thing line, then they might join the fray
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I'm really digging TYT's commentary atm.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEEkEUcb2Y4[/url]
Does anyone else see the video? I see the code when quoting your post bell, but can't see the video at all. :(
Palestine in themselves - not a lot, but when you include all the Arab countries that have had bones to pick with Israel then it becomes a lot more of a level playing field.
The Arabs know that in terms of military hardware, the Israelis have the edge and so generally try not to get involved but if Israel stepped over the very thing line, then they might join the fray
Haha, I think it is highly unlikely. That would more than likely start WW3 given Americas massive investment in Israel and the fact they're already tooling up for a war on Iran. Then we have Russia who would be totes down. Hell even China might join in.
And let's not delude ourselves. Israel is the only middle eastern state (excluding Pakistan sort of) that has nuclear weapons. I don't see the other Arab states doing anything except posturing. Poor Palestinians.
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The youtube vid pops up as an embedded video as normal for me. I only watched a minute of it though. It didn't really 'grab' me.
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Also, is there actually some independent source confirming the number of rockets being fired at Israel? Or is everyone just taking that shit at face value? I'm seeing lots of pictures of airstrikes but not of rocket impacts. Also do we have any idea what sort of rockets? I've heard everything from military RPGs to homemade rockets with grenades on the end.
Thanks aloysius
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NP. No idea, but might be interesting.
It's amazing how much coverage this gets in comparison to Syria. 5 days vs more than a year. 50 ISH casualties v 50,000 ISH.
I guess the difference is there is a greater chance of it having the potential to involve other nations, whereas Syria is just in a civil war and it's in the too hard basket for the US.
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This shit is scary man, seeing all of these dead kids really hits home when you actually have a child..
I'm not well informed on the current Israel/Palestine situation apart from what I'm seeing on the News and what have you, which so far has been PALESTINE BAD, ISRAEL GOOD and vice versa,
Is there a distinctive 'bad' guy in this situation? one channel is playing up Israel civilians being hit by rockets and the next minute it's the opposite?
What's the gist? or could I chime back to 5th form Social studies, Israel vs Palestine and add 40 years onto the dates?
also, for extra points, isn't Hamas a terrorist organization (again, to the extent of my knowledge, extreme baby brain still) so their leader being assassinated would be a 'good' thing? yes?
I'm so confused :(
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They are all as bad as each other in that region of the world. Israel does not help the cause when they cause mass collateral damage in their response which is not proportionate to what they received and seem to trying to make the situation worse atm. Election next year I assume.
"It's amazing how much coverage this gets in comparison to Syria. 5 days vs more than a year. 50 ISH casualties v 50,000 ISH."
Syria is terrible. Both sides are committing atrocities on one another (however the ruling regime is worse) and civilians who align with either side tend to be the direct victims (not via collateral damage.)
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also, for extra points, isn't Hamas a terrorist organization (again, to the extent of my knowledge, extreme baby brain still) so their leader being assassinated would be a 'good' thing? yes?
They are also the elected government so it's not as simple as equating them to Osama and friends.
There is also good reason to believe they have been a lot more moderate than many other groups in gaza, Hamas only launched rockets 3 times this year (before this Israeli Operation) generally in response to an assasinations.
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Does anyone else see the video? I see the code when quoting your post bell, but can't see the video at all. :(
Ensure flash is installed, and javascript is enabled.
I never see vid embeds because I don't flash. Not even a placeholder comes up, which is probably to do with JS detection or something.
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Heres what the one of the founders of Israel and the first Prime minster had to say over 70 years ago, you won't hear the current leaders say this sort of stuff.
Strange what 70 years of PR does to an argument.
In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us. But let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. I insist on the truth, not out of respect for scientific but political realities. The acknowledgement of this truth leads to inevitable and serious conclusions regarding our work in Palestine… let us not build on the hope the terrorist gangs will get tired. If some get tired, others will replace them.
A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all ... The centre of the war is in Palestine, but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs... and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome... But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand but in the political sphere they are superior. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside. They defend bases which are theirs, which is easier than conquering new bases... let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini's propaganda — this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs.
David Ben-Gurion - Address at the Mapai Political Committee (7 June 1938)
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And being elected to office?
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This shit is scary man, seeing all of these dead kids really hits home when you actually have a child..
I'm not well informed on the current Israel/Palestine situation apart from what I'm seeing on the News and what have you, which so far has been PALESTINE BAD, ISRAEL GOOD and vice versa,
Is there a distinctive 'bad' guy in this situation? one channel is playing up Israel civilians being hit by rockets and the next minute it's the opposite?
What's the gist? or could I chime back to 5th form Social studies, Israel vs Palestine and add 40 years onto the dates?
also, for extra points, isn't Hamas a terrorist organization (again, to the extent of my knowledge, extreme baby brain still) so their leader being assassinated would be a 'good' thing? yes?
I'm so confused :(
Israel as a state has existed for less than 70 years. The British (through the League of Nations iirc) wanted to create a homeland for the Jewish peoples. So in classic empire building style, they split Palestine in half and gave half it to the Zionist occupying forces. The local Arabs were initially bought out but some refused to leave and the settlers took up arms to drive them out. They realized that was rather a lot cheaper than paying, so that became the norm.
The arabs weren't so keen and several very famous wars were fought to try and stop the Zionist movement, with Israel kicking seven kinds of shit out of the military forces of every country that surrounds them. These defeats lost still more ground, and gave the Israelis a good excuse to police the Arabs brutally.
There have been several attempted ethnic cleansings of the Arabs by the Jews and vast quantities of blood spilled, the vast majority being Palestinian. There is a list of warcrimes committed by Israel during the violence which I believes numbers to 65ish.
Don't get me wrong, the Arab forces have done some very bad shit, but let's put this in perspective. 3 Israelis are dead and I think the Palestinian death toll is somewhere around 100 with another 900 injured. The media keeps saying half of them were civilians. The other half were Palestinian security forces, not necessarily militants, more like cops. The Israelis are killing cops, then when firefighters and ambulance crews turn up to do their jobs, bombing them too!
There is a lot of very good stuff online about this, Democracy Now has some great videos. You should read about it but it's fucking grim.
Oh also, the guy that Israeli killed that "started" this whole thing, he'd just ratified a more permanent ceasefire than the one that was in place. But that isn't in Israels interest.
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This is worth watching. Its a bit wordy and stuff, but interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wb6IiSUxpgw
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(http://sphotos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/665806_483817344974231_108539109_o.jpg)
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This is worth watching. Its a bit wordy and stuff, but interesting.
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wb6IiSUxpgw[/url]
So its a clusterfuck either way, with Israel there is a fight between Palestine and Israel, Without Israel its a 3way middle eastern war.
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What an almost impossible situation to resolve.. both peoples won't want to leave 'their' land to resolve this so I really don't see how long this 'ceasefire' can realistically last?
I propose this resolution, how about nobody lives in Israel and Palestinians get it for one weekend, and then Jewish peoples get it the next. They live in/around the border and Israel can be
turned into a massive tourist location for all those religiousy types and everyone can be lovely and stop firing rockets at one another, it's not nice.
Problem solved.
(http://img.fae.ro/363ff8.gif)
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(http://snappedshot.com/uploads/Parody/amap445.jpg)
This solution Hijacked from another thread :)
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I know it's just Huffpo but I thought this wasn't too badly written;
5 Lies the Media Keeps Repeating About Gaza
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/omar-baddar/5-lies-the-media-keeps-re_b_2160239.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false
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(http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/480962_503476629684746_999301401_n.jpg)
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An uneasy truce reached
http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/7981860/Israel-Hamas-reach-truce-official
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^;1509561']I know it's just Huffpo but I thought this wasn't too badly written;
5 Lies the Media Keeps Repeating About Gaza
[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/omar-baddar/5-lies-the-media-keeps-re_b_2160239.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false[/url]
The comments make me sad.
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Pic bell posted looks like a scene from BF3.
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Pic bell posted looks like a scene from BF3.
(http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/589/mavriderplo.png)
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Hmmmm. Who's alt account is thread collector......
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[video=vimeo;15843191]http://vimeo.com/15843191[/video]
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y58njT2oXfE
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[video=vimeo;15843191]http://vimeo.com/15843191[/video]
Adeeb is right. The fence will fall
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1 more reason to watch 5 broken cameras.
http://oscar.go.com/nominees/documentary-feature/5-broken-cameras