Poll

Would you vote for or against Louisa Wall\'s (Labour Party)  Marriage Equality Bill?

For
34 (82.9%)
Against
3 (7.3%)
Abstain
4 (9.8%)

Total Members Voted: 40

Voting closed: August 28, 2013, 11:06:08 pm

Topic: Is this the simplest political decision so far this year?

Offline Zarkov

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Reply #50 Posted: September 03, 2012, 08:38:11 am

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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I'm a Jedi.

Reply #51 Posted: September 03, 2012, 08:41:51 am

Offline Black Heart

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No effect on me, so I can let the concerned parties handle it.

Reply #52 Posted: September 03, 2012, 04:05:14 pm

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Quote from: Spacemonkey;1501177
One third isn't really 'most people'.


Also I disagree that the percentage of religion in a country has any significant effect on gay marriage. Both Canada and South Africa support gay marriage and they both have over a 70% religious population.

There's a difference between being a church going Christian and culturally identifying as Christian.
I think the percentage of church going Christians would make a huge difference to gay marriage as it is generally the Church that has a problem with these things.

Reply #53 Posted: September 03, 2012, 06:21:30 pm

Offline 420fairy

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Quote from: Zarkov;1500604
I don't understand why anyone would want to get married.


totally agree with you on this - this is one of lifes experiences (as society sees marriage anyways) that I wont be doing.  I have been with my other half for 14 years now and dont see a reason to change "status" I am already referred to as Mrs, i have the same rights as a married couple.  If i want to formalise my love then it will just be myself Mr Fairy and little Fairy at some registry office - but i dont have any desire to get "married" or put on a show as i view it.  

As for same sex marriage - all for it, why not?  So many people dont even take their damn vows seriously and have already corrupted the institution that is marriage why not let same sex couples in and have equality?

Reply #54 Posted: September 03, 2012, 07:10:15 pm

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There could be some really fascinating statistics surrounding the success of same sex marriage compared to different sex.....then again 50% of gay marriage's could end in divorce too.

Reply #55 Posted: September 05, 2012, 09:55:45 am
"We are the majority we arent the tards, the people we pick on are." -Luse_K

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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What we won't have, is any unwanted pregnancies, that's for sure.

Any children to a Gay couple will be an active decision on both parties.

Reply #56 Posted: September 05, 2012, 10:14:48 am

Offline The Demon Lord

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Quote from: Spacemonkey;1501455
What we won't have, is any unwanted pregnancies, that's for sure.

Any children to a Gay couple will be an active decision on both parties.

As a slight side discussion - I am a bit conservative when it comes to Gay people raising kids - I have no problem with it so long as on the adoption form they have to specify a surrogate Mother/Father. My reasoning is just this:

I believe that a child forms a special bond with each of its parents - cases in point, when I was younger, I would always want to go to the Park/play football with my Dad but when I had hurt myself, I would always go see my Mum. I believe that having the balance of both inputs (male and Female perspective) is important - we have (although they are derogatory) phrases in the english language to describe some of these special bonds: Mummies Boy and Daddies Girl

And on the flip side, I believe that every Son needs a Dad to teach him how to be a Man and likewise every Deughter needs a Mother to teach her how to be a Woman.

Am I against Gay Adoption? - No. Do I believe that Most Gay parents would do a million times better than most of the scum of humanity who don't wear protection, get pregnant and then bring a child into the world when they aren't mentally, Financially and emotionally ready? - Yes I think Gay Parents would do a better job.

But I still think that a Child needs both the Male and Female Love/attention and input - so having a Gay couple with a sorrugate 3rd to provide that input is fine with me. And plus the child gets the Love of 3 parents instead of 2.

(yes feel free to call me a touch old fashioned, but I do strongly believe that, like most things in life, Balance is required)

Reply #57 Posted: September 05, 2012, 02:55:32 pm

Offline oefox

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I was fully for this bill but after a little thought...

I strongly dislike religion and I don't think state and religion should ever mix. I don't think that under any circumstances should any one person's beliefs be forced upon to someone else. The problem with this bill, while not intentional, is implicitly forcing a belief change onto religions which is kind of contradictory.

It's my understanding that the only difference between marriage and civil union is the name and the right to adopt. Let them adopt ffs or are gay couples simply upset because they don't like the term "civil union"??? What if we legally replaced references to marriage and had generic unions that are all legally equal regardless if religious, civil, or uncivil???

Reply #58 Posted: September 05, 2012, 03:48:52 pm
- badfox

Offline Tandoori

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I agree to a point TDL, but I think it's a non-issue. Further, I'd say that making it mandatory to nominate a surrogate would be too intrusive.

Not well versed in the protocol of adoption in NZ, but I assume there's some decent vetting to ensure parents are suitable. I would suggest that most same-sex couples accept that each sex has an important part in shaping the mind of a child - and therefore, would make moves to ensure that base is covered. They're going to be aware of the issues and will, on their own accord, ensure those issues are mitigated.

There's conclusive evidence to suggest a number of parental practices can improve outcomes for children, but we don't have to incorporate them into policy or legislation, this would be one of those issues.

Reply #59 Posted: September 05, 2012, 03:52:58 pm

Offline Tandoori

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Quote from: oefox;1501502
I was fully for this bill but after a little thought...

I strongly dislike religion and I don't think state and religion should ever mix. I don't think that under any circumstances should any one person's beliefs be forced upon to someone else. The problem with this bill, while not intentional, is implicitly forcing a belief change onto religions which is kind of contradictory.

It's my understanding that the only difference between marriage and civil union is the name and the right to adopt. Let them adopt ffs or are gay couples simply upset because they don't like the term "civil union"??? What if we legally replaced references to marriage and had generic unions that are all legally equal regardless if religious, civil, or uncivil???

 Marriage, under law, is a function regulated and controlled by the State. There is no legal inclusion of a religious component of marriage in New Zealand. There is no 'forcing a belief change onto religions' here. Religions' will interpret Marriage however they wish, as they have done ever since this country started.

Arguing that there is, essentially argues that Religion has some (to date unfounded) claim to legal definitions of Marriage, which totally goes against the separation of Church & State.

Reply #60 Posted: September 05, 2012, 03:59:50 pm

Offline deanox

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Quote from: The Demon Lord;1501495
As a slight side discussion - I am a bit conservative when it comes to Gay people raising kids - I have no problem with it so long as on the adoption form they have to specify a surrogate Mother/Father. My reasoning is just this:

I believe that a child forms a special bond with each of its parents - cases in point, when I was younger, I would always want to go to the Park/play football with my Dad but when I had hurt myself, I would always go see my Mum. I believe that having the balance of both inputs (male and Female perspective) is important - we have (although they are derogatory) phrases in the english language to describe some of these special bonds: Mummies Boy and Daddies Girl

And on the flip side, I believe that every Son needs a Dad to teach him how to be a Man and likewise every Daughter needs a Mother to teach her how to be a Woman.

Am I against Gay Adoption? - No. Do I believe that Most Gay parents would do a million times better than most of the scum of humanity who don't wear protection, get pregnant and then bring a child into the world when they aren't mentally, Financially and emotionally ready? - Yes I think Gay Parents would do a better job.

But I still think that a Child needs both the Male and Female Love/attention and input - so having a Gay couple with a surrogate 3rd to provide that input is fine with me. And plus the child gets the Love of 3 parents instead of 2.

(yes feel free to call me a touch old fashioned, but I do strongly believe that, like most things in life, Balance is required)

Had a long conversation with a gay friend about this, I would rather see children go to good homes instead of some of the scum out there, some adopted children in the past have ended up in the wrong situations.

But on the note of having an 'extra' I can see your point, It would be beneficial to have that in their lives especially when the subject of puberty rolls around. Who are they go to when they need to talk and their parents are of the opposite sex. But like most social circles there's always that go to person around, but being able to nominate that someone might not be such a bad idea.

Reply #61 Posted: September 05, 2012, 04:17:51 pm

Offline Zarkov

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Hot lesbian mothers, what could be wrong with that?

Think how jealous your friends would be.

Reply #62 Posted: September 05, 2012, 04:25:51 pm

Offline The Demon Lord

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Quote from: Super_Hori;1501503
I agree to a point TDL, but I think it's a non-issue. Further, I'd say that making it mandatory to nominate a surrogate would be too intrusive.

Not well versed in the protocol of adoption in NZ, but I assume there's some decent vetting to ensure parents are suitable. I would suggest that most same-sex couples accept that each sex has an important part in shaping the mind of a child - and therefore, would make moves to ensure that base is covered. They're going to be aware of the issues and will, on their own accord, ensure those issues are mitigated.

There's conclusive evidence to suggest a number of parental practices can improve outcomes for children, but we don't have to incorporate them into policy or legislation, this would be one of those issues.


Good Points, Good Points.

I agree that I am also not an expert in adoption, but I would put forward that there are situations/scenarios where a couple could have a child naturally but if they went to adopt - they would be declined for being in-elligible and those reasons wouldn't be considered intrusive. I would like to believe that my idea would also not be considered too intrusive - although good points that I think most Gay people would also see the value in having a member of the opposite Sex have a regular input into a young childs life.

But as I said - I am a little conservative in this area and rather than let it happen on a couples own accord - I would prefer that it be a requirement or even a weighted factor (ie you don't necessarily need to have one, but it is major plus points if you do kinda thing)

Reply #63 Posted: September 05, 2012, 04:37:59 pm

Offline toofast

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Quote from: The Demon Lord;1501519
Good Points, Good Points.

I agree that I am also not an expert in adoption, but I would put forward that there are situations/scenarios where a couple could have a child naturally but if they went to adopt - they would be declined for being in-elligible and those reasons wouldn't be considered intrusive. I would like to believe that my idea would also not be considered too intrusive - although good points that I think most Gay people would also see the value in having a member of the opposite Sex have a regular input into a young childs life.

But as I said - I am a little conservative in this area and rather than let it happen on a couples own accord - I would prefer that it be a requirement or even a weighted factor (ie you don't necessarily need to have one, but it is major plus points if you do kinda thing)

I just dont get it, aren't there a lot of single parent families out there. I mean i am sure a fair share have some contact with their other parent, but there are kids out there who only have access to 1 parent. Should we bringing in a surrogate for them as well? While i am sure having both a male and female influence in your life, might help you growing up, i am sure kids will turn out fine with just the 1 parent (or 2 parents of the same sex).

Reply #64 Posted: September 05, 2012, 08:46:47 pm

Offline The Demon Lord

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Quote from: toofast;1501533
I just dont get it, aren't there a lot of single parent families out there. I mean i am sure a fair share have some contact with their other parent, but there are kids out there who only have access to 1 parent. Should we bringing in a surrogate for them as well? While i am sure having both a male and female influence in your life, might help you growing up, i am sure kids will turn out fine with just the 1 parent (or 2 parents of the same sex).

If I had my way - the answer would be yes.

Don't get me wrong I am sure that there are a lot of Single parents who are single parents not through their own choice and do a fantastic job of raising their children. I always refer to Chris Rock's humourous rant on the subject: 'Just because it can be done, doesn't make it a good idea'

and with Adoption, I always feel that you should start with trying to give the Child the absolute best possible start in life (as opposed to putting them in a situation where it isn't optimum)

Reply #65 Posted: September 06, 2012, 08:11:02 am

Offline Zarkov

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Having children shouldn't be some sort of inherent right anyway.

It's not like the world needs a whole lot more of them.

Reply #66 Posted: September 06, 2012, 08:16:15 am

Offline 420fairy

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Quote from: The Demon Lord;1501495
As a slight side discussion - I am a bit conservative when it comes to Gay people raising kids - I have no problem with it so long as on the adoption form they have to specify a surrogate Mother/Father. My reasoning is just this:

I believe that a child forms a special bond with each of its parents - cases in point, when I was younger, I would always want to go to the Park/play football with my Dad but when I had hurt myself, I would always go see my Mum. I believe that having the balance of both inputs (male and Female perspective) is important - we have (although they are derogatory) phrases in the english language to describe some of these special bonds: Mummies Boy and Daddies Girl

And on the flip side, I believe that every Son needs a Dad to teach him how to be a Man and likewise every Deughter needs a Mother to teach her how to be a Woman.

Am I against Gay Adoption? - No. Do I believe that Most Gay parents would do a million times better than most of the scum of humanity who don't wear protection, get pregnant and then bring a child into the world when they aren't mentally, Financially and emotionally ready? - Yes I think Gay Parents would do a better job.

But I still think that a Child needs both the Male and Female Love/attention and input - so having a Gay couple with a sorrugate 3rd to provide that input is fine with me. And plus the child gets the Love of 3 parents instead of 2.

(yes feel free to call me a touch old fashioned, but I do strongly believe that, like most things in life, Balance is required)

 
very old fashioned indeed however why should this only be applied to same sex couples?  there are plenty of hetero marriages who have children split up and one parent disappears or the amount of hetero couples who find their pregnant and majority speaking the father bails off.  

i know plenty of children who were raised by one parent and have zero contact with the other and have turned out ok myself and my hubby included.  Mr Fairy was raised by his mum and his mum taught him how to be a  man.  She was rugby league coach for years and frankly did a better job in teaching him how to be a man.  i dont believe "enforcing" a surrogate will mean shit at all.  If you want children and you want to ensure they are raised in a loving supportive household then it doesnt matter whether your parents are from the same sex or not its the desire and the want.

i know plenty of hetero parents that treat their kids like shit - you read about it daily.  

i think you will find same sex couples are better prepared for children they cant have naturally with their partners - they have better financial backup theyve been and lived out the experiences they wanted (unlike many hetero couples who suddenly find suprise pregnancies)

im sorry  but i clearly disagree with your views

i also strongly disagree with the church too who deem this revolting as far as im concerned churches who for decades have swept sexual offending and abuse of children under their filthy rugs for decades have no right to say that same sex marriage would destroy the holy sanctity of marriage and the church.  Religious representatives have been bringing down the house of god on their own for years

Reply #67 Posted: September 06, 2012, 08:43:55 am

Offline The Demon Lord

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Quote from: th3fairy;1501567
very old fashioned indeed however why should this only be applied to same sex couples?  there are plenty of hetero marriages who have children split up and one parent disappears or the amount of hetero couples who find their pregnant and majority speaking the father bails off.  

i know plenty of children who were raised by one parent and have zero contact with the other and have turned out ok myself and my hubby included.  Mr Fairy was raised by his mum and his mum taught him how to be a  man.  She was rugby league coach for years and frankly did a better job in teaching him how to be a man.  i dont believe "enforcing" a surrogate will mean shit at all.  If you want children and you want to ensure they are raised in a loving supportive household then it doesnt matter whether your parents are from the same sex or not its the desire and the want.

i know plenty of hetero parents that treat their kids like shit - you read about it daily.  

i think you will find same sex couples are better prepared for children they cant have naturally with their partners - they have better financial backup theyve been and lived out the experiences they wanted (unlike many hetero couples who suddenly find suprise pregnancies)

im sorry  but i clearly disagree with your views

Fair-y Nuff (excuse the Pun, that was terrible)

As above - if I had my way, every child would have a Mother and a Father. The difference is between Hetero couples and Same Sex couples is that in the majority of cases - you can't stop a Hetero couple from having a child (I mean that in a legal/biological way) whereas for a Gay couple (without the use of Sperm Donors, Turkey Basters or Surrogate mothers) there isn't the option to concieve naturally. From this point of view - they have to have outside assistance to raise a child and for me as a condition of recieving that outside assistance would be to make sure that the child has the best possible start in life.

Again - not trying to knock on single parents who do and continue to do a Fantastic job given bad circumstances, but when it comes to adoption I believe we should do our best to avoid bad circumstances from the word go.

I also agree that there are plenty of children who do have a Mother and Father yet aren't raised in a loving environment (personally, These so-called parents almost make me want to believe in Hell and eternal damnation for their deriliction of what I consider one of the most important duties any human being has)

As for Religon - If they stopped focussing on about 4 lines in the Bible (most of which were over-ruled by Jesus in the New testement Anyway) and started focussing more on the central tenants of Christianity:

Believing God is God
Believing Jesus was his son and died for your sins
Love thy Neighbor as thyself
Believing Jesus is the path the Salvation

Then the world would be a much much better place. However too many seem to get hung up on out of context quotes and missing the message of the Bible and end up being IMO not very christian at all.

Reply #68 Posted: September 06, 2012, 10:30:22 am

Codex

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Quote from: The Demon Lord;1501495
As a slight side discussion - I am a bit conservative when it comes to Gay people raising kids - I have no problem with it so long as on the adoption form they have to specify a surrogate Mother/Father. My reasoning is just this:

I believe that a child forms a special bond with each of its parents - cases in point, when I was younger, I would always want to go to the Park/play football with my Dad but when I had hurt myself, I would always go see my Mum. I believe that having the balance of both inputs (male and Female perspective) is important - we have (although they are derogatory) phrases in the english language to describe some of these special bonds: Mummies Boy and Daddies Girl

And on the flip side, I believe that every Son needs a Dad to teach him how to be a Man and likewise every Deughter needs a Mother to teach her how to be a Woman.

Am I against Gay Adoption? - No. Do I believe that Most Gay parents would do a million times better than most of the scum of humanity who don't wear protection, get pregnant and then bring a child into the world when they aren't mentally, Financially and emotionally ready? - Yes I think Gay Parents would do a better job.

But I still think that a Child needs both the Male and Female Love/attention and input - so having a Gay couple with a sorrugate 3rd to provide that input is fine with me. And plus the child gets the Love of 3 parents instead of 2.

(yes feel free to call me a touch old fashioned, but I do strongly believe that, like most things in life, Balance is required)
Not every child has the luxury of their mother and father being there, divorced parents or the child of a milkman.

I know quite a few whom were raised by only their mothers who definitely didn't need a father to teach them how to be a man, and others that were only raised by their father that did not need a woman to teach them how to be a woman. Sex should have nothing to do with how parents raise their children.

I do see how you mean two men or two woman raising a child cannot always offer the same balance of experience and gender specific things to a child but these solo parents raising children do a fucking good job of it most of the time and more than prove to me that two same sex parents can raise a wonderful child.


In regards to all the sunday christians comments about this bill, as mentioned above if they actually bothered to focus on the four lines instead of adding a fifth one in "hate all homosexual people" then all this ridiculousness would be over and done with by now
Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 10:44:22 am by Codex

Reply #69 Posted: September 06, 2012, 10:42:12 am

Offline BeNZene

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From the Herald article today on a protest in Auckland. A picture is worth a thousand words, but I think this needs only four: Never go full retard.


Reply #70 Posted: October 28, 2012, 10:39:00 pm


Offline Zarkov

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Maybe they be trollin?

Reply #71 Posted: October 29, 2012, 07:28:21 am

Offline deanox

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Or mantally retarded

Reply #72 Posted: October 29, 2012, 07:38:13 am

Offline varkk

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Quote from: BeNZene;1506787
From the Herald article today on a protest in Auckland. A picture is worth a thousand words, but I think this needs only four: Never go full retard.



Just think, those two grown men at one point would have looked at those signs and thought "Yes, this sign conveys my message in the way I wish to convey it, I am happy to be seen in public holding this."

Reply #73 Posted: October 29, 2012, 08:32:47 am

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

  • Fuck this title in particular.

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  • Posts: 19,050
I'm having hard time deciding which sign is worse.

Reply #74 Posted: October 29, 2012, 08:44:51 am