Studying Computer Programming

[swindle]

All your threads are the same bro.

[Bounty Hunter]

I offered you advice years ago when you started at MDS and you kinda threw it away, so bare with me for a second while I say "told you so"

Now that we've got passed yours and my ego I'll go back to actually being helpful.

Believe it or not but I found myself in roughly the same predicament as you, except maybe my maths was a bit better (do you know what differentiation and integration are without looking up google? - srs question no wrong answer - I didn't so if you do then you're better off than I was)

I started engineering at Canterbury, the aim was to get into mechanical engineering (my other passion) however my grades fell flat due to picking up some bad study habits (read: none) from some flatmates who actually failed and have since dropped out, but I recognised this, worked fucking hard and got offered a position in electrical (or computer) engineering, which I took, as it's still a good degree in an industry that is sky rocketing.

It's a 4 year degree at the least, 5 years if you, like me, fuck up and have to resit a paper, and AUT offer the 2nd best school of engineering in new zealand (it's so close behind canterbury I'm really not offended if you just say you're from UC haha) so it is a big time commitment (also about 60 grand student loan....) I currently do about 10-12 hours a day, it's actually gone up this week to 12-14 cause exams are in 2 weeks time, I rarely have $50 in my account and I have to do a lot of walking and saving to get by, but that's how it is.

I, like you, came in with an arty background (something that I kept pretty under wraps until we did CAD - HAHA!) but it has helped me in some respects (see CAD) and also we do a bit of engineering design too, and there's always 5 points for using colours. I once had a test where we were given 20 seconds to look at the technical drawing of a shape and like 2 minutes to draw it in a 2 point perspective, I picked up the shape in about 5 seconds and had it drawn before they took away the picture....but that's about it. (it was a 2x3x2 with 1x1x1 missing out of the top front LH corner and the same missing out of the bottom RH back corner)

They will baby you into maths, but I recommend you do maybe a 100 level paper (or a catch up course if AUT offer it, canterbury call it CUP course) just to bring you up to speed, I have struggled with maths a lot so far, only recently have I actually started grasping it first time every time and able to happily sit a test and know I can pass, this hasn't been such an issue in the physics and chemistry papers where the maths has been fairly trivial.

In ECE (electrical and computer eng) we do a fair whack of programming, starting with python and then moving on to C, while this isn't the run of the mill computer science stuff (they do a lot of theory) a friend of mine is just finishing computer eng and is going into software engineering (aka programming) he said to me the only difference he's noticed between a computer eng student and a computer science student is that the computer eng students gets about 10k more a year for a graduate position, and employers are willing to pay that cause you are a trained engineer.

From what I've witnessed and spoken to the computer science guys at uni their maths is much easier, so easy in fact it took me a while to remember it, like when it came to finding the remainder of 2 numbers, something I learned in primary school, I had completely forgotten and the tutor actually laughed at me (fair call, I laugh at them when the lecturer brings up more advanced maths that they cant deal with - there was complaints when we had to integrate a function last semester)

which leads me further into computer science, it's a lot more theory mixed with a bit of "just do this" as opposed to "how this works" which is just my observation, and no doubt warped from my engineering education.

My final advice on university, which I've learned, don't do what you want to do, do what you're good at, I wanted to do mech, but my childhood of computers and circuits made it easier for me to do electrical/computer eng, I was also very good at chemistry, although I hated it, I could have done chemical and process engineering too.

And some advice unrelated to university, there are no get rich quick schemes Oddball, in almost all your posts you're afraid of commitment, I was too, but sometimes you've got to just suck it up and dive right in, it's fucking scary and you'll learn a lot about yourself, but honestly, you'll be fine.

This all sounds very hard, if someone had told me all of that 4 or 5 years ago I would have told them to fuck-right-off but I think you should seriously look into university if it's an option to you (as in - you can get a student loan and do the work)

[Oddball]

First, thanks for the informative post.

It was more about doing what I wanted to do in life than ignoring your advice. I already knew that was the reality of things before I went there, but I was willing to give it a shot, and it failed in a lot of ways. But it was still a good experience and it isn't wasted, I'll still be doing it to make my own video games etc. and of course I can also make software for artists that the industry lacks, but we'll see how that turns out.

People seem to think of their advice as a demand of that person and it's a crime to go against it, guess what, people have difference thought processes, emotions, and opinions on things. My inability to work in the industry is actually unrelated to what I've learned, it's the industry compared to some other things I have in my life that prevent me from working in it. It's what I wanted to do, so I did it. Then my circumstances messed up my plans.

Just because you advise me to do something I'm not going to throw everything in the air and walk off and do that, as opposed to taking it into consideration and then formulating my own idea surrounding it.

The real issue here is why are people so emotionally attached to their advice and opinions? Why do they care so much about it that they get angry when people do something else? It's really sad and pathetic.

Anyway, I'm going off topic here. I'll talk to some people in my family and see what they think, just because I value their opinions. And I'll go talk to someone at University of Auckland. And then the other people who can help, and I'll make a decision based on that. But ultimately I will probably end up doing this.

My idea would of been to learn math online prior to commencing studies, since it wouldn't begin until late feb / early march. Maybe there's somewhere more appropriate and more centered around what I'm doing, but it's really good to know they'll baby me into it - although I like feeling comfortable with my environment so I'll put effort in myself.

[Kayne]

[uninformative post]
1. Play Garry's mod
2. Program and play in that everyday
3.
4. Profit

[\uninformative post]

[mattnz]

The real issue here is why are people so emotionally attached to their advice and opinions? Why do they care so much about it that they get angry when people do something else? It's really sad and pathetic.

lol.

I think Massey does offer a few papers you might be interested in.

http://www.massey.ac.nz/paper/?q=blade of grass

I know, I know, your sister got 'screwed' by them, but I don't trust that your opinion of 'getting screwed' aligns with anyone else's, in the entire world.

And fyi, university computer science maths paper entrance requirements are generally a bit more than 'I learnt some maths off the interwebs', so hopefully you've got something a bit more substantial.

[Bounty Hunter]

Yeah, maths off the internet wouldn't be a great idea.

there's nothing to get you motivated to learn all about eigenvalues like an exam!

[Oddball]

Yeah, maths off the internet wouldn't be a great idea.

there's nothing to get you motivated to learn all about eigenvalues like an exam!

Gah, I'll talk to them about a remedial math course prior to the actual degree then. Thanks.


And matt your useless troll comments are not needed, let alone welcome here.




Oh, by the way bounty, I know what you mean about living with flatmates who are unmotivated, it's a shit atmosphere to live in because it makes it feel okay for you to be unmotivated, whereas living with successful hard working people makes you feel guilty if you aren't doing so well. Picking the people you live with makes quite a difference for sure, I try and live with friends who I know are good people vs lazy stoners f.ex

[mattnz]

Seems like you just got some use out of my 'troll' comments, so ionno.

Also I did a software engineering degree at Massey, so you could actually pick up some useful information if you open your eyes and take your fingers out of your ears, despite my not presenting it in your preferred, ego-massaging manner.

[Oddball]

Seems like you just got some use out of my 'troll' comments, so ionno.

Also I did a software engineering degree at Massey, so you could actually pick up some useful information if you open your eyes and take your fingers out of your ears, despite my not presenting it in your preferred, ego-massaging manner.

I could study rocket science (no I couldn't) then act like a retard on the internet, wouldn't make me useful in any particular thread. Cut the shit.

[Bounty Hunter]

Gah, I'll talk to them about a remedial math course prior to the actual degree then. Thanks.

The other one that will help you too is writing essays, in engineering and/or computer science you'll write more reports than essays - but the point of difference is important and you'll need to learn it.

Once you have a good report structure down you pretty much just have to change the title, the equations, the data and the graphs and you're done.

The cup course I did had maths, chemistry, physics and "prep" which was an essay writing paper, they let the science and engineer kids write reports mostly instead though cause I've only ever written one essay and it was in that paper.

[Oddball]

Ah awesome, when I go in to talk to them I'll ask them about the math/essay stuff. Physics would probably be quite useful, too.

[mattnz]

I could study rocket science (no I couldn't) then act like a retard on the internet, wouldn't make me useful in any particular thread. Cut the shit.

Aw, you're just so precious ^_^

[Xsannz]

Aw, you're just so precious ^_^

Insert Delusional childish segue quote from LOTR here /\

[private_hell]

you might be out of luck with CUP courses - they arent supported by the TEC so a few Uni's have stopped offering them.

[Pyromanik]

UC just shut theirs down.

[Xenolightning]

I studied Software Eng at Victoria, and for the most part it got me nowhere (I still haven't graduated and I'm doing quite well for myself) (sorry private_hell )

I would recommend learning a popular language/framework, which is probably one of Java or .NET in NZ, sign up to a software development forum and learn best practices from the community.

Then should you change your opinions of programming you won't have sunk cash into nothing.

Also I'm not quite sure where people get the undertone of Programming=Maths, the only "mathy" part is algorithms, and there are plenty of examples. If you know how to add, multiply, divide and subtract you will be able to do most things you need to.

I find that 50% of my time as a developer is spent creating, designing and selling idea's, 30% documenting and 20% actually writing code. In saying that I'm probably more of an analyst than a programmer as such.

[Slingshot]

Programming is boring.

[Retardobot]

Whatever you study, just be sure it's what you want. Don't rush anything, take time to make the decision because it may just be a passing phase.

Be incredibly thorough before you put the cash down for tuition fees or lock in more student debt.

Really, I mean REALLY make sure it's what you want. Because at the end of the day, reading a few books may just get you to the same place. I've known a lot of people who don't have the greatest qualifications when it comes to developing but have been able to SHOW people what they can do and interviews for developer positions tend to give you a good chance to do this.

[Xsannz]

I agree with xeno. I did a bachelors in com soc and a diploma in advanced programming.

But have learnt more out of purchasing the text book and applying it to my job irl than I ever did with theory at uni.

I also find that 20% percent of my time is actual code and of that 5% is new code the rest is rehashing something for somebody else.

But them I am an analyst

[Zarkov]

Like Computer Programming.

Our company is always needing to hire new developers.

It doesn't need any more plumbers.

Correction.

We need more monkey programmers and swindle plumbers.

What we don't need is more swindle programmers and monkey plumbers.

[Oddball]

I studied Software Eng at Victoria, and for the most part it got me nowhere (I still haven't graduated and I'm doing quite well for myself) (sorry private_hell )

I would recommend learning a popular language/framework, which is probably one of Java or .NET in NZ, sign up to a software development forum and learn best practices from the community.

Then should you change your opinions of programming you won't have sunk cash into nothing.

Also I'm not quite sure where people get the undertone of Programming=Maths, the only "mathy" part is algorithms, and there are plenty of examples. If you know how to add, multiply, divide and subtract you will be able to do most things you need to.

I find that 50% of my time as a developer is spent creating, designing and selling idea's, 30% documenting and 20% actually writing code. In saying that I'm probably more of an analyst than a programmer as such.

Only issue for me is that I struggle with learning stuff on my own, staying focused is quite troublesome for me without something else pushing me. I started learning C# in the past but my block with it was trying to do it in unity and that made me give up lol, I'll try and get back into it, though.

The real question then is what do I try and make in C# that will benefit me career-wise? I know only for my personal enjoyment I'd like to make games but I'm not sure I can learn that online because I tried in the past and just kept falling over myself and it was never C# I was learning it was more XNA or unity. None of the tutorials seem to teach me what I need as opposed to just saying how they do something.

So what tutorials would you recommend to get started?

I'll still consider doing computer science, but maybe less of the mathematical courses in that case.

 

Whatever you study, just be sure it's what you want. Don't rush anything, take time to make the decision because it may just be a passing phase.

Be incredibly thorough before you put the cash down for tuition fees or lock in more student debt.

Really, I mean REALLY make sure it's what you want. Because at the end of the day, reading a few books may just get you to the same place. I've known a lot of people who don't have the greatest qualifications when it comes to developing but have been able to SHOW people what they can do and interviews for developer positions tend to give you a good chance to do this.

I've had interest in programming most of my life just never actually pursued it for whatever (probably bad) reason in a more conventional sense, I use python for my art related stuff but that's a very forgiving language. I definitely get where you're coming from, 3 years is a lot of time and a lot of money to commit.
 

I agree with xeno. I did a bachelors in com soc and a diploma in advanced programming.

But have learnt more out of purchasing the text book and applying it to my job irl than I ever did with theory at uni.

I also find that 20% percent of my time is actual code and of that 5% is new code the rest is rehashing something for somebody else.

But them I am an analyst

I completely get the rehashing part, I'm always referring to my old code and re-writing stuff.

So - the question I'd pose for all above quotes is would I be better off just doing a diploma? MDS actually offer a bachelor of software engineering, which is game programming and it's quite tempting - what isn't tempting is the near 10 grand per year for 3 years. It would be a lot of fun but I'm not willing to pay that much. I'll look into other shorter courses out there.
 

Correction.

We need more monkey programmers and swindle plumbers.

What we don't need is more swindle programmers and monkey plumbers.

I'm more a programmer than I am a plumber, that's for sure.

[Oddball]

Quick question I wanted separated out.

Someone mentioned .NET, I've started with C#, do I continue with it? Or something else?




As for short courses, there's this but it's expensive and I'm not sure if Ames is actually any good:


http://www.ames.ac.nz/courses/course-detail.aspx?microsoft_mcts_software_development_and_certification_ames_it_academy_nz_pc9783




Found a pretty good website here that goes through C# basics then into XNA

http://rbwhitaker.wikidot.com/c-sharp-tutorials

This too: http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-Yourself-21-Days/dp/0672320711/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

The real question then is what do I try and make in C# that will benefit me career-wise? I know only for my personal enjoyment I'd like to make games but I'm not sure I can learn that online because I tried in the past and just kept falling over myself and it was never C# I was learning it was more XNA or unity. None of the tutorials seem to teach me what I need as opposed to just saying how they do something.

So what tutorials would you recommend to get started?

SQL is important to learn, however you can only really learn the basics in a tutorial.
C# is great for windows apps.

What is important is linking the two together. Pretty much every bussiness application involves a database back end, and some kind of UI (windows app, web page etc) to view and edit the data.

You could start by developing a simple windows forms app which lists records stored fin a table in the database.

Next step would be inserting and updating records etc.


You can get SQL Express here
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=29062

[Xenolightning]

Diploma would probably be a good place to start. It'll teach you the basics.

Once you have the underlying knowledge, API's become your friend and learning just becomes a thing you do without realising it.

I mentioned .NET, and I'm going to get shot by Tiwa for doing so. BUT, it's a very corporate framework, and it's easy to learn with plenty of examples. C# is my preference, but I learnt VB.NET in 2 days (after knowing C#.NET for ~ year) There is a huge amount of jobs for .NET developers and our universities seem to be churning out Java developers, which leaves an area that is in demand at the moment. If you choose this route, do it quickly because I foresee in a year or two it will be much harder to get a .NET job

Once you learn one language, you can read and interpret almost every other language there is.


EDIT: I concur with the Monkey

[Oddball]

SQL is important to learn, however you can only really learn the basics in a tutorial.
C# is great for windows apps.

What is important is linking the two together. Pretty much every bussiness application involves a database back end, and some kind of UI (windows app, web page etc) to view and edit the data.

You could start by developing a simple windows forms app which lists records stored fin a table in the database.

Next step would be inserting and updating records etc.


You can get SQL Express here
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=29062

I'll give that a shot then, it's downloading now.

 

Diploma would probably be a good place to start. It'll teach you the basics.

Once you have the underlying knowledge, API's become your friend and learning just becomes a thing you do without realising it.

I mentioned .NET, and I'm going to get shot by Tiwa for doing so. BUT, it's a very corporate framework, and it's easy to learn with plenty of examples. C# is my preference, but I learnt VB.NET in 2 days (after knowing C#.NET for ~ year) There is a huge amount of jobs for .NET developers and our universities seem to be churning out Java developers, which leaves an area that is in demand at the moment. If you choose this route, do it quickly because I foresee in a year or two it will be much harder to get a .NET job

Once you learn one language, you can read and interpret almost every other language there is.


EDIT: I concur with the Monkey

I'll definitely be going with C# in that case.

Is it even worth my learning to make video games?