Get Some
General => General Chat => Intellectual Discussion => Topic started by: Apostrophe Spacemonkey on August 11, 2015, 12:42:23 pm
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Edited for
flag poll
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNxYAbXUcAACYD7.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/NZ_flag_Photo.jpg/800px-NZ_flag_Photo.jpg)
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At first I wasn't keen on the idea of changing the flag.
But some of these designs are actually pretty cool. Now I want to see it changed.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11495030 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11495030)
I like 5, 6, 8.
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/5lnhgnid.nbp.png)
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/yezhiz0l.t0x.png)
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Looks cool. But not $26m cool.
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5 is leading the herald poll, with 6 close behind. I'll be happy with either design.
They should just pick one of those and skip the whole referendum.
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5/6 seem the best choice, in keeping the flag still somewhat consistent. Shame its going to cost so much to change it.
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Once they shut down TPP talks then we should discuss flag changes.
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Not enough Union Jack for my liking, Also - call my Cynical, but all I am seeing is Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V and then change some colours.
And as Rii said - not worth $26 Million - if it was a slow Tuesday and they had a couple hundred grand MAX that they simply HAD to spend then maybe (and I am being generous here).
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Still not keen on changing it, and any replacement MUST have the union jack on it.
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Still not keen on changing it, and any replacement MUST have the union jack on it.
Why?
The whole point of changing it is to get rid of the union jack.
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Still not keen on changing it, and any replacement MUST have the union jack on it.
Fuddy duddy.
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New Zealand wants to change the flag because it looks too much like the Australian one.
Australia wants to change their flag because it looks too much like the New Zealand one.
I reckon we should wait till Australia change their flag, then we change our flag to one that looks almost the same like Australia's new flag, for the epic lols.
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Why?
The whole point of changing it is to get rid of the union jack.
Because it represents our ties to the homeland. We are now, and always will be a child of the British Empire.
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Why?
The whole point of changing it is to get rid of the union jack.
Because it represents our ties to the homeland. We are now, and always will be a child of the British Empire.
I'm not a child of the British Empire.
I support being part of the commonwealth, but there is no need for our flag to keep the union jack, many other commonwealth countries have changed their flag and removed the union jack (aka Canada).
The Queen is still our head of state, and is mentioned in one of our national anthems, we still have plenty of ties to our 'homeland'.
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I will reiterate my facebook musings. If the flag must change, and we don't get "guy on bike" I will fucking spack.
(https://slimgur.com/images/2015/08/11/31970678a1d97621e7f6a6d39abd170d.md.jpg) (https://slimgur.com/image/GO7)
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I'm deadly serious too. If they spend this money on a flag and not resettling refugees or educating children I demand to see Valerie Vili bearing "guy on bike" at the Rio Olympics. (https://slimgur.com/images/2015/08/11/d641eca9b68677cbeab3bb98efeb9484.gif)
I'm not a child of the British Empire.
(https://slimgur.com/images/2015/08/11/9f0ec20319eeaf07886346de03e711e5.md.jpg) (https://slimgur.com/image/GOV)
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New Zealand wants to change the flag because it looks too much like the Australian one.
Australia wants to change their flag because it looks too much like the New Zealand one.
I reckon we should wait till Australia change their flag, then we change our flag to one that looks almost the same like Australia's new flag, for the epic lols.
Haha.
We could have Kiwi fucking a Koala.
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New Zealand wants to change the flag because it looks too much like the Australian one.
Australia wants to change their flag because it looks too much like the New Zealand one.
I reckon we should wait till Australia change their flag, then we change our flag to one that looks almost the same like Australia's new flag, for the epic lols.
Haha.
We could have Kiwi fucking a Koala.
Fuck if we have to change the cunt, that'd get my vote!
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Why?
The whole point of changing it is to get rid of the union jack.
Because it represents our ties to the homeland. We are now, and always will be a child of the British Empire.
I'm not a child of the British Empire.
I support being part of the commonwealth, but there is no need for our flag to keep the union jack, many other commonwealth countries have changed their flag and removed the union jack (aka Canada).
The Queen is still our head of state, and is mentioned in one of our national anthems, we still have plenty of ties to our 'homeland'.
The Queen of England is still our Head of State - so maybe having a Union Jack on our Flag is warranted....
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My favourites:
The ferns, pretty much any of the ferns that touch the top and bottom and don't have overly politically driven colours. If we put green on the flag the fuckin' greenies would abuse the shit out of that, the old union jack colours are a bit out too.
(https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/34.-Sven-Baker-Silver-Fern.jpg)
(https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/3.-Alofi-Kanter-Silver-Fern-Black-and-White.jpg)
(https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/4.-Alofi-Kanter-Silver-Fern-Black-and-White.jpg)
Modern, my only reservation with these is that they might date a bit.
(https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/Pax-Zwanikken-Tukutuku-FINAL.png)
(https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/Pax-Zwanniken-Raranga-FINAL.png)
Korus, these are the only koru ones I like, the others just don't do it for me.
(https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/Huihui-SNIP.PNG)
(https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/Unity-Koru-Paul-Densem-FINAL-FINAL.jpg)
(https://www.govt.nz/assets/flags-designs/BLACK-JACK-FLAG-Mike-Davison.jpg)
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As noted I have a very strong preference to keep the current flag, but out of the ones listed, the only real options to me are 6 and 38.
Also how the fuck did so many shitty Koru designs make the top 40? I mean really 19/40? what the actual fuck.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7NxDOrt8wI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7NxDOrt8wI)
I'ma just leave this here!
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I will reiterate my facebook musings. If the flag must change, and we don't get "guy on bike" I will fucking spack.
([url]https://slimgur.com/images/2015/08/11/31970678a1d97621e7f6a6d39abd170d.md.jpg[/url]) ([url]https://slimgur.com/image/GO7[/url])
I prefer this one
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/ugpvfktt.d2h.jpg)
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Updated thread to include a flag poll.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11505765 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11505765)
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The red and blue fern is the best from that lot.
But tbh, I really don't care if we keep the current flag if those are our options.
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I still like the original one, if they do change it, you will still be allowed to fly the original one because of it's historical significance (if you are in to that kind of thing)
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Yeah there will be two NZ flags. But meh. I'm indifferent on the whole thing.
I quite liked the idea of a new flag, but it's gone now.
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Ive already started flying my all blacks flag. Because I care :p
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Just use an enlarged version of the new $20 note.
It's already got the Queen on it. Sorted.
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/wpeprz0s.1qo.jpg)
Or good old Edmund Hillary
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/fvn2apta.1qt.jpg)
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The 1st and the 3rd ones are shit because they look like fucking logos. 4th looks like the MLB logo.
Voted for option 2, but with seething disdain because this whole cluster-fuck is an exorbitant waste of money and an exercise in misdirection.
Fuck you National faggots.
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Nothing to do with National really, there has been a debate about a flag for years. Even Labour has as part of their policy to review the design of the New Zealand flag, they're just jealous now because they wont be the ones doing it.
How is it a waste of money? You don't think a country has the right to choose what its flag looks like?
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Nothing to do with National really, there has been a debate about a flag for years. Even Labour has as part of their policy to review the design of the New Zealand flag, they're just jealous now because they wont be the ones doing it.
How is it a waste of money? You don't think a country has the right to choose what its flag looks like?
NZ gangs are fundraising to feed poverty stricken kids in schools.
National: "Lets drop a couple of dozen mill on a flag!".
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Variety appears to be somewhat lacking.
Please choose from one of the following:
- a fern with stars
- a slightly different fern with stars
- a fern without stars
- oops we swirled up the fern without stars
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Variety appears to be somewhat lacking.
Please choose from one of the following:
- a fern with stars
- a slightly different fern with stars
- a fern without stars
- oops we swirled up the fern without stars
I don't think it really matters, the fern with stars has been a clear favourite for a while now (based on polls). None of the other designs really stood a chance.
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Hmm, this looks familiar.
(http://images1.tickld.com/live/general/8f986b05dd9f7efc385111b1104695c4.jpg)
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Just use an enlarged version of the new $20 note.
It's already got the Queen on it. Sorted.
([url]http://iforce.co.nz/i/wpeprz0s.1qo.jpg[/url])
Or good old Edmund Hillary
([url]http://iforce.co.nz/i/fvn2apta.1qt.jpg[/url])
Wait what? Our money is changing (again) too?
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Wait what? Our money is changing (again) too?
http://www.brightermoney.co.nz/ (http://www.brightermoney.co.nz/)
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Should just get rid of paper (plastic) money altogether. Force everyone to go electronic.
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So Red Peak on now part of the referendum
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11517757 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11517757)
I've included it the original poll and reset the votes.
Personally I think Red Peak would be better as Australia's flag, because it's the shape of an A, then the red triangle in the middle reminds me of Uluru / Ayers Rock.
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+1 for Red Peak.
+2 for scrapping the whole fucking thing.
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Fuck yeah, now people can vote for the flag that their friend who did graphic design but now works as a bank teller told them is actually the best design even though it didn't get much attention initially because people hadn't had its significance explained to them.
#wellinformeddecisions
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We can use the money generated by our Rockstar Economy (http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/9583473/New-Zealand-2014s-rock-star-economy) to select more flags that people didnt realize that they wanted!
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"Hey can we get Kiwi Laser added as an option too?"
"Sure, go nuts, do whatever the fuck you want, I'm out of here soon anyway" - JK
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I want to keep, but if we have to change it should be Te Pepe
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I don't like Red Peak at all, I don't see how a bunch of triangles has anything to do with New Zealand. However if it gets more people interested in the referendum then that's only a good thing.
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I don't like Red Peak at all, I don't see how a bunch of triangles has anything to do with New Zealand. However if it gets more people interested in the referendum then that's only a good thing.
If you draw a line between the bottom of the south island, and the top of the north island - NZ is a triangle
If you look at our Mountain Ranges - they are made up of Triangles
If you look at our boat builders - the hulls look like triangles.
If you look at our national sport (Rugby) - a Rugby ball is pretty much 2 triangles stuck together.
If you look at NZ - the Letters N and Z are pretty much made up of 2 triangles apeice.
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If you draw a line between the bottom of the south island, and the top of the north island - NZ is a triangle
If you look at our Mountain Ranges - they are made up of Triangles
If you look at our boat builders - the hulls look like triangles.
If you look at our national sport (Rugby) - a Rugby ball is pretty much 2 triangles stuck together.
If you look at NZ - the Letters N and Z are pretty much made up of 2 triangles apeice.
Now that I have had it's significance explained to me, I clearly see why this is the best design.
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If you draw a line between the bottom of the south island, and the top of the north island - NZ is a triangle
If you look at our Mountain Ranges - they are made up of Triangles
If you look at our boat builders - the hulls look like triangles.
If you look at our national sport (Rugby) - a Rugby ball is pretty much 2 triangles stuck together.
If you look at NZ - the Letters N and Z are pretty much made up of 2 triangles apeice.
Now that I have had it's significance explained to me, I clearly see why this is the best design.
No no no, he's not a graphic designer, ideally Rii needs to tell you about the strength of the triangle and the modes of affluence the colours are contrived from.
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Red peak is growing on me, if we combine it just like this.
(https://www.tvnz.co.nz/content/dam/images/news/2015/09/23/nz-first-mp-draws-nazi-link-to-red-peak-flag.png.hashed.db8043da.desktop.story.inline.jpg)
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If you draw a line between the bottom of the south island, and the top of the north island - NZ is a triangle
If you look at our Mountain Ranges - they are made up of Triangles
If you look at our boat builders - the hulls look like triangles.
If you look at our national sport (Rugby) - a Rugby ball is pretty much 2 triangles stuck together.
If you look at NZ - the Letters N and Z are pretty much made up of 2 triangles apeice.
Now that I have had it's significance explained to me, I clearly see why this is the best design.
No no no, he's not a graphic designer, ideally Rii needs to tell you about the strength of the triangle and the modes of affluence the colours are contrived from.
Flag works because it is massively contemporary. It can't be linked to any previously established brand. The koru designs and fern designs where shit because every fucking Joe Fuck Face has some sort of koru pattern or fern in their NZ business logo, we're tired of seeing the same emblems being trotted out.
Also, I have no fucking clue about flag designing. It's an entirely different beast and has to please a nation, not a marketing board, despite what those fuck-holes at National think.
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If you draw a line between the bottom of the south island, and the top of the north island - NZ is a triangle
If you look at our Mountain Ranges - they are made up of Triangles
If you look at our boat builders - the hulls look like triangles.
If you look at our national sport (Rugby) - a Rugby ball is pretty much 2 triangles stuck together.
If you look at NZ - the Letters N and Z are pretty much made up of 2 triangles apeice.
Now that I have had it's significance explained to me, I clearly see why this is the best design.
No no no, he's not a graphic designer, ideally Rii needs to tell you about the strength of the triangle and the modes of affluence the colours are contrived from.
Flag works because it is massively contemporary. It can't be linked to any previously established brand. The koru designs and fern designs where shit because every fucking Joe Fuck Face has some sort of koru pattern or fern in their NZ business logo, we're tired of seeing the same emblems being trotted out.
Also, I have no fucking clue about flag designing. It's an entirely different beast and has to please a nation, not a marketing board, despite what those fuck-holes at National think.
IT WORKS BECAUSE IT IS TRIANGLES!
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It works because a2 = b2 + c2 - 2bc cos a
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It works because a2 = b2 + c2 - 2bc cos a
*cos A
#wellinformed
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TRIANGLES!
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TRIANGLES!
Are a symbol of the illuminati!
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TRIANGLES!
Are a symbol of the illuminati!
(http://iforce.co.nz/i/feqet0dq.iye.jpg)
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For all those who want to keep our existing flag. You agree with Justin Bieber.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/72614231/bieber-wades-into-nz-flag-debate (http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/72614231/bieber-wades-into-nz-flag-debate)
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so because he likes it, it definitely changes, right?
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Also, $20 + $5 shipping if you want to get one of the 5 alternates 1.8 x 0.9m
http://new.grabone.co.nz/house-garden/house-garden/p/one-of-five-potential-nz-flags (http://new.grabone.co.nz/house-garden/house-garden/p/one-of-five-potential-nz-flags)
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I am tempted to spend the $100 for all of them so I can film myself wiping my arse with them for youtube.
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Also, $20 + $5 shipping if you want to get one of the 5 alternates 1.8 x 0.9m
[url]http://new.grabone.co.nz/house-garden/house-garden/p/one-of-five-potential-nz-flags[/url] ([url]http://new.grabone.co.nz/house-garden/house-garden/p/one-of-five-potential-nz-flags[/url])
They could have at least ironed them before taking the photos. All those fold creases ruin the look.
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Very annoyed with the voting papers for the flag. Considering making a video the paper on fire instead of voting. There is no option to opt out of the vote, so if you dont want the flag to change and you vote then you automatically lose.
Also: The electoral commission wants people to not share photos of their papers.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers (http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers)
It's nice to see some people had the same idea I had. Unfortunately, it breaks all of the voting rules.
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Very annoyed with the voting papers for the flag. Considering making a video the paper on fire instead of voting. There is no option to opt out of the vote, so if you dont want the flag to change and you vote then you automatically lose.
Also: The electoral commission wants people to not share photos of their papers.
[url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers[/url] ([url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers[/url])
It's nice to see some people had the same idea I had. Unfortunately, it breaks all of the voting rules.
You mean people have the inability to freakin read a sheet of paper?
There is vote to decide if you don't want a flag change, it happens in March, it says so right on the voting form.
All those people spoiling there voting papers are morons.
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You might as well vote for the flag you think is best. I was going to cast a null vote but then I though of something.
In the unlikely event that the vote to change passes, I at least want a voice in choosing the design I prefer. Think about it. Vote no to change, but cover your bases.
I think I like the plain silver fern in black and white, but that's a bit of a "fuck you" to all the kiddies trying to draw something so complex in primary school.
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Very annoyed with the voting papers for the flag. Considering making a video the paper on fire instead of voting. There is no option to opt out of the vote, so if you dont want the flag to change and you vote then you automatically lose.
Also: The electoral commission wants people to not share photos of their papers.
[url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers[/url] ([url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers[/url])
It's nice to see some people had the same idea I had. Unfortunately, it breaks all of the voting rules.
You mean people have the inability to freakin read a sheet of paper?
There is vote to decide if you don't want a flag change, it happens in March, it says so right on the voting form.
All those people spoiling there voting papers are morons.
Wouldnt it make more financial sense to have the option to keep the current flag on the first referendum?
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Wouldnt it make more financial sense to have the option to keep the current flag on the first referendum?
No, because how could you decide to change the flag if you don't yet know what it will be changed to?
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Wouldnt it make more financial sense to have the option to keep the current flag on the first referendum?
No, because how could you decide to change the flag if you don't yet know what it will be changed to?
Including the current flag as an option on the first alongside the other 5 so you know what options are available should give you a damn good idea on how many want or do not want it changed.
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No, because how could you decide to change the flag if you don't yet know what it will be changed to?
Because they include what it could be changed to on the form. It says so right there.
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Including the current flag as an option on the first alongside the other 5 so you know what options are available should give you a damn good idea on how many want or do not want it changed.
That would introduce a bias against changing the flag.
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Including the current flag as an option on the first alongside the other 5 so you know what options are available should give you a damn good idea on how many want or do not want it changed.
That would introduce a bias against changing the flag.
Which is precisely why it should be included - 1 referendum as opposed to 2.
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Very annoyed with the voting papers for the flag. Considering making a video the paper on fire instead of voting. There is no option to opt out of the vote, so if you dont want the flag to change and you vote then you automatically lose.
Also: The electoral commission wants people to not share photos of their papers.
[url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers[/url] ([url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers[/url])
It's nice to see some people had the same idea I had. Unfortunately, it breaks all of the voting rules.
Tiwa loses 2nd smartest person in forums position.
Moves seamlessly to dumbest person position.
Spacemonkey moves up to 2nd place.
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Including the current flag as an option on the first alongside the other 5 so you know what options are available should give you a damn good idea on how many want or do not want it changed.
That would introduce a bias against changing the flag.
Which is precisely why it should be included - 1 referendum as opposed to 2.
Unless you get 50%+ saying they don't want to change the flag on the first one, you will need the second one.
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Very annoyed with the voting papers for the flag. Considering making a video the paper on fire instead of voting. There is no option to opt out of the vote, so if you dont want the flag to change and you vote then you automatically lose.
Also: The electoral commission wants people to not share photos of their papers.
[url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers[/url] ([url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/74282570/electoral-commission-warns-kiwis-against-sharing-photos-of-flag-voting-papers[/url])
It's nice to see some people had the same idea I had. Unfortunately, it breaks all of the voting rules.
Tiwa loses 2nd smartest person in forums position.
Moves seamlessly to dumbest person position.
Spacemonkey moves up to 2nd place.
If someone feels strongly about not changing the flag then this referendum is like asking that person body part they would like to be punched in.
And they're asking it before the winner is announced.
http://www.getsome.co.nz/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=84028.0;attach=7855;image (http://www.getsome.co.nz/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=84028.0;attach=7855;image)
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If you draw a line between the bottom of the south island, and the top of the north island - NZ is a triangle
If you look at our Mountain Ranges - they are made up of Triangles
If you look at our boat builders - the hulls look like triangles.
If you look at our national sport (Rugby) - a Rugby ball is pretty much 2 triangles stuck together.
If you look at NZ - the Letters N and Z are pretty much made up of 2 triangles apeice.
Now that I have had it's significance explained to me, I clearly see why this is the best design.
No no no, he's not a graphic designer, ideally Rii needs to tell you about the strength of the triangle and the modes of affluence the colours are contrived from.
Flag works because it is massively contemporary. It can't be linked to any previously established brand. The koru designs and fern designs where shit because every fucking Joe Fuck Face has some sort of koru pattern or fern in their NZ business logo, we're tired of seeing the same emblems being trotted out.
Also, I have no fucking clue about flag designing. It's an entirely different beast and has to please a nation, not a marketing board, despite what those fuck-holes at National think.
dunno looks pretty similar to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Vexillological_Association
also about wasting the 26mill, that is just the price of the referendum not the price of actually changing anything
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I don't get why people are getting so hung up about the money.
The government spends much larger sums on other things and nobody cares. But then we have a democratic referendum, and people say it's a waste of money? You would rather John Key just picked a flag and not let anyone else have a say? That would have been much cheaper.
And it's not wasted, the money gets pay directly back into the NZ economy, Employee wages, NZ post etc
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If someone feels strongly about not changing the flag then this referendum is like asking that person body part they would like to be punched in.
Then don't vote in it.
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I don't get why people are getting so hung up about the money.
The government spends much larger sums on other things and nobody cares. But then we have a democratic referendum, and people say it's a waste of money? You would rather John Key just picked a flag and not let anyone else have a say? That would have been much cheaper.
And it's not wasted, the money gets pay directly back into the NZ economy, Employee wages, NZ post etc
1: it wasn't a change that anyone wanted (polling before it was announced I think from memory was 70% against changing the flag)
2: its a lot of money for a bunch of 'consultants' to ponce around the country, having a nice holiday on my tax Dollar.
3: If you are going to raise the Democratic aspect - then why ignore the pre-flag polling showing that no one wanted a change, further more why did they not do an initial and much cheaper referendum with 2 options 'Should we change the flag Y/N'
4: It's my money they are wasting - Cunts.
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1: it wasn't a change that anyone wanted (polling before it was announced I think from memory was 70% against changing the flag)
The entire referendum is to determine EXACTLY THIS. What better way to draw a useful conclusion that doing an OFFICIAL "country wide poll".
To say that no-one wanted it before the referendum has actually taken place, is just plain stupid.
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1: it wasn't a change that anyone wanted (polling before it was announced I think from memory was 70% against changing the flag)
The entire referendum is to determine EXACTLY THIS. What better way to draw a useful conclusion that doing an OFFICIAL "country wide poll".
To say that no-one wanted it before the referendum has actually taken place, is just plain stupid.
No, the current referendum is asking us to select our preferred alternative - not whether or not we want change.
Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.
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No, the current referendum is asking us to select our preferred alternative - not whether or not we want change.
Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.
There is only ONE referendum. The ultimate goal is to determine whether NZ wants a new flag.
How do you know you don't want a change if you don't know the options for change?
It's the exact same thing as deciding your hole in the ground is the best, without even popping your head up out of the hole to see other holes.
You might think your current hole is pretty good, but other people are quite interested in seeing the other holes in the paddock before choosing a hole they want to sit in.
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1: it wasn't a change that anyone wanted (polling before it was announced I think from memory was 70% against changing the flag)
70% against changing the flag doesn't not mean 70% were against having a referendum.
You assuming that if the No vote wins next march, then the referendum was a waste of money. But that is not the case at all.
A No vote means the current NZ flag will be kept for maybe another hundred years, which is what the supporters of the current flag would want.
The referendum was going to happen anyway, either this government, the next, or the one after that. It was on the agenda of both major political parties.
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No, the current referendum is asking us to select our preferred alternative - not whether or not we want change.
Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.
There is only ONE referendum. The ultimate goal is to determine whether NZ wants a new flag.
How do you know you don't want a change if you don't know the options for change?
It's the exact same thing as deciding your hole in the ground is the best, without even popping your head up out of the hole to see other holes.
You might think your current hole is pretty good, but other people are quite interested in seeing the other holes in the paddock before choosing a hole they want to sit in.
To me - that is Arse-about-face.
Decide if you want to change first, then start making alternatives then determine if those alternatives are good enough to justify change.
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Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.
That turns it from a question about changing the flag into a question about spending money, where peoples answers will depend on their frugality.
For example, a lot of people would answer these two questions differently;
Should we have a referendum to change the flag?
The total cost of this will be $20
or
Should we have a referendum to change the flag?
The total cost of this will be $20 billion.
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To me - that is Arse-about-face.
Decide if you want to change first, then start making alternatives then determine if those alternatives are good enough to justify change.
People are change adverse. If you do a survey asking for change, most people will vote against change.
That's effectively what you are proposing.
1) Let's Change!
2) No!
3) Ok!
4) Repeat from Step 1
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Before the Road show, before the Designs, Before ANYTHING - there should have been a referendum about whether NZ wanted to change - if the response was more than 50% no, then we stop - and save a good chunk of that $26 Mill, if more than 50% was yes they would be interested in Change - THEN we proceed with all the circus that the flag debacle has been.
That turns it from a question about changing the flag into a question about spending money, where peoples answers will depend on their frugality.
For example, a lot of people would answer these two questions differently;
Should we have a referendum to change the flag?
The total cost of this will be $20
or
Should we have a referendum to change the flag?
The total cost of this will be $20 billion.
Absolutely - Cost/benefit analysis. There are sweet FA benefits from changing the flag (you are still going to be that island off the coast of Australia that is good at Rugby) and so the cost for me to consider it a worthwhile endeavor would have to be equally low.
Assume we change the flag, and spend $26 mil + the actual cost of new Flags/insignia/stuff - what is the overall benefit to NZ as a whole and to me as a Tax Payer? I don't see a Benefit.
I do however see other things that have been put on the backburner or cancelled which I see greater benefit than this fascicle exercise.
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To me - that is Arse-about-face.
Decide if you want to change first, then start making alternatives then determine if those alternatives are good enough to justify change.
People are change adverse. If you do a survey asking for change, most people will vote against change.
That's effectively what you are proposing.
1) Let's Change!
2) No!
3) Ok!
4) Repeat from Step 1
Then so be it - Democracy in action.
Relephant link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA)
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The Blue / Black Fern design won.
Followed closely by the Blue / Red Fern design.
Red Peak was a distant third.
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The Blue / Black Fern design won.
Followed closely by the Blue / Red Fern design.
Red Peak was a distant third.
Didnt vote.
Hate everyone who voted.
http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/flag-result-causing-debate-2015121208#axzz3u34pdGGv (http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/flag-result-causing-debate-2015121208#axzz3u34pdGGv)
Deputy Prime Minister Bill English says the result shows strong public interest in the future of the nation's flag.
It was Prime Minister John Key's decision to put a flag change in front of voters and let them decide.
He played you.
He played all of you like a puppet.
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The Blue / Black Fern design won.
Followed closely by the Blue / Red Fern design.
Red Peak was a distant third.
Didnt vote.
Hate everyone who voted.
[url]http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/flag-result-causing-debate-2015121208#axzz3u34pdGGv[/url] ([url]http://www.3news.co.nz/nznews/flag-result-causing-debate-2015121208#axzz3u34pdGGv[/url])
Deputy Prime Minister Bill English says the result shows strong public interest in the future of the nation's flag.
It was Prime Minister John Key's decision to put a flag change in front of voters and let them decide.
He played you.
He played all of you like a puppet.
It kind of says it all, this, from ODT on Saturday "The vote included what appeared to be a significant protest element, with 9.7% of votes informal.
The Electoral Commission said last night 1,527,042 votes were received, including 148,022 informal votes (9.7%) and 2476 invalid votes (0.16%).
The turnout was 48.16% of registered voters". If the Finance Minster thinks this was strong public interest he shouldn't be handling my money for much longer.
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It kind of says it all, this, from ODT on Saturday "The vote included what appeared to be a significant protest element, with 9.7% of votes informal.
The Electoral Commission said last night 1,527,042 votes were received, including 148,022 informal votes (9.7%) and 2476 invalid votes (0.16%).
The turnout was 48.16% of registered voters". If the Finance Minster thinks this was strong public interest he shouldn't be handling my money for much longer.
Well, I look at those same numbers and come to the opposite conclusions.
9.7% of votes informal, but I not sure what they are protesting against. They didn't like any of the flags? Well too bad. Not everyone can have the flag they want, that is why we have to vote for it.
Fortunately, the democratic process doesn't cater to the minority, but for the majority.
48.16% of registered voters is quite good, on par with other postal votes, and higher then many local government elections.
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It kind of says it all, this, from ODT on Saturday "The vote included what appeared to be a significant protest element, with 9.7% of votes informal.
The Electoral Commission said last night 1,527,042 votes were received, including 148,022 informal votes (9.7%) and 2476 invalid votes (0.16%).
The turnout was 48.16% of registered voters". If the Finance Minster thinks this was strong public interest he shouldn't be handling my money for much longer.
Well, I look at those same numbers and come to the opposite conclusions.
9.7% of votes informal, but I not sure what they are protesting against. They didn't like any of the flags? Well too bad. Not everyone can have the flag they want, that is why we have to vote for it.
Fortunately, the democratic process doesn't cater to the minority, but for the majority.
48.16% of registered voters is quite good, on par with other postal votes, and higher then many local government elections.
9.7% is very high for a protest vote according to Pol Studies lecturer Dr Bryce Edwards from Otago Uni, he stated that 1% was normal. The protest vote may well be more about changing the flag and not the options if i have read the poll results right. NZ Herald on 24 November reported that 65% of those polled did not want the change. If that is the case then following on the polls the better question being asked in the referendum should have been about whether we wanted a change at all. For my money it means only 38.4% actually voted for any flag option/change, so still not seeing strong public interest.
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It's been stated many times before, asking the question "do we want to the change flag?" without first presenting the alternative option, is a stupid idea.
Would you agree to have your house painted a different colour, without knowing what colour?
Choosing the alternative flag first is logically the best way of doing it.
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It's been stated many times before, asking the question "do we want to the change flag?" without first presenting the alternative option, is a stupid idea.
Would you agree to have your house painted a different colour, without knowing what colour?
Choosing the alternative flag first is logically the best way of doing it.
Apparently those that did the polling don't agree with the sentiment that it is stupid and considering they got a good response to that question says it all. Why would you want to change your house colour, the old adage applies if it isn't broken don't fix it The only reasons to paint the house a different colour would be: you are doing maintenance; trying to improve it for sales purposes; or, you are genuinely sick of the old colour. Either way you still need to ask the question.
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*sigh*
How can you even paint your house without paint existing.
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*sigh*
How can you even paint your house without paint existing.
Never did like that debate in Metaphysics ;D
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So what we've leaned here today is that the Flag Referendum is a quantum phenomenon, and we now have a dead cat.
At least Gareth Morgan will be happy.
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we now have a dead cat.
Xeno the pussy slayer.
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Xeno the pussy slayer.
I'm sorry, who are you again?
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Just a lurker who has a little crush on you.
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Good use of NZD$26,000,000 guys.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5QjCwRMIluk/VtkbIqIkp-I/AAAAAAAAGTs/wwQp3yciGP4/w714-h536-no/IMG_20160304_181254.jpg)
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you know that this vote does not get counted and it will go towards the new flag count instead, right?
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you know that this vote does not get counted and it will go towards the new flag count instead, right?
You know votes dont get counted until they arrive at the voting office and this hasnt been delivered yet, right?
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you know that this vote does not get counted and it will go towards the new flag count instead, right?
I thought spoiled votes don't count either way.
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you know that this vote does not get counted and it will go towards the new flag count instead, right?
I thought spoiled votes don't count either way.
you thought right. it is invalid and doesn't count either way.
Informal and Invalid Votes
Under section 32 of the New Zealand Flag Referendum Act, an informal vote is recorded when for the first referendum, the voting paper does not clearly indicate the voter’s first preference and for the second flag referendum, where the voting paper does not clearly indicate the option for which the elector wished to vote. This can be because the voter leaves the paper blank, the voter takes deliberate action to spoil the paper, or an error by the voter means that their intention is not clear. Informal votes are included in the overall turnout, but do not count towards the result.
Under Section 33 of the Act, a vote is recorded as invalid for a number of reasons including being a forgery or a copy, being received after the voting period has closed, where a person has voted more than once, or the voting paper is damaged in such a way that it cannot be processed.
The official results record turnout as percentage of enrolled electors, and how many informal votes and invalid votes were received in total.
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Is this an improvement?
(http://www.getsome.co.nz/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88923.0;attach=9895)
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Is this an improvement?
([url]http://www.getsome.co.nz/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88923.0;attach=9895[/url])
that makes to decision a no brainer :)
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Apparently, and I mean that word in the highest sense as I saw this on facebook, writing on the paper CAN cause the vote to be counted as invalid.
Which would mean everyone writing "Fuck the new flag", "Fuck John Key" or as above - "N0O0O!!" ... would invalidate their vote to keep the old flag, causing a higher vote for the new one.
Not that I care, really. I like both flags, but I do get sick of the people who confuse NZ and Australia.
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Apparently, and I mean that word in the highest sense as I saw this on facebook, writing on the paper CAN cause the vote to be counted as invalid.
Which would mean everyone writing "Fuck the new flag", "Fuck John Key" or as above - "N0O0O!!" ... would invalidate their vote to keep the old flag, causing a higher vote for the new one.
Not that I care, really. I like both flags, but I do get sick of the people who confuse NZ and Australia.
Clearly there is only one way to settle this then.
(http://www.getsome.co.nz/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=88923.0;attach=9897)
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You didn't follow the instructions. Your tick extends past the bounds of the voting area. Vote is therefore void.
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Argh, they left it long enough for the new flag to grow on me a bit, and now I don't care either way..
Maybe I should just sell my vote on trademe
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The next time the government try this shit we should stage a coup. A ridiculous waste of time, money, and manpower and it has made New Zealand a laughing stock
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The next time the government try this shit we should stage a coup. A ridiculous waste of time, money, and manpower and it has made New Zealand a laughing stock
The new flag got a higher percentage of the vote then both Labour and the greens combined in the last election.
So no, I don't consider it a waste of time and money.
And who is laughing?
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The only thing that is a laughing stock is people trying to apply their dislike of John Key/National to what turned out to be a topical issue. This referendum got a lot of people talking about it, and some good discussion were had on the topic.
It seems most kiwi's can't separate their personal issues from potentially furthering our country. That goes for people on both sides of the flag argument.
I tend to think of most things like a business transaction (other than person to person ofc), being aware of your personal biases or conflicts of interest, can only better the quality of your opinion.
There is a reason I didn't vote in the referendum. I'm not fond of our current flag, and am open for a change; I also didn't particularly like the new design. So my non-vote was a vote and not a vote for both.
EDIT: Mod's need to move this thread out of the "Intellectual Discussion" sub, into the "Irrational Verbal Diarrhoea" sub.
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It seems most kiwi's can't separate their personal issues from potentially furthering our country. That goes for people on both sides of the flag argument.
A majority of the local city councils are in debt.
It seems most kiwis dont know that until their rates go up.
Then they see $26,000,000 spent on a flag 'debate'.
Plus complaining is a National sport in New Zealand.
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A majority of the local city councils are in debt.
It seems most kiwis dont know that until their rates go up.
Then they see $26,000,000 spent on a flag 'debate'.
Plus complaining is a National sport in New Zealand.
Local council debt is a different issue.
To put it in perspective. $26M would cover about 5% of Wellington's debt, and would save residents something like $150 for a single a year. Not including interest and whatever else that debt incurs.
Also $26M is bugger all. It's about $8 per eligible voter, over the course of about 6 months.
As I said, it turned out there was something to take away from the referendum. 44% of voters wanted to change the flag, even to something resembling a tea towel. With about 1 million non-voters, that didn't care enough to vote either way.
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It warrants having another vote in 10 years time. By then, there will be a whole new generation of voters, (and a whole generation of older voters who grew up with the current flag would have died off).
We'll change to a new flag for sure.
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(http://iforce.co.nz/i/udlfbjqb.zor.png)
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It warrants having another vote in 10 years time. By then, there will be a whole new generation of voters, (and a whole generation of older voters who grew up with the current flag would have died off).
That's wishful thinking :) I'm counting on modern medicine to intervene and give me another shot
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I just hope we'll have electronic voting by then. Will be so much cheaper then doing it by mail.