Get Some
General => General Chat => Topic started by: Bounty Hunter on October 05, 2013, 05:03:55 pm
-
I just realised we haven't had discussion on here about it!
So valve is launching into the domain of the console (the living room) with a console that is made of PC parts.....in other words a PC....
The other week Valve announced these 3 things:
SteamOS (http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/) - Linux based gaming OS
Steam Machines (http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamOS/) - Modular console like PC for the living room
Steam Controller (http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/SteamController/) - It's a controller.
I'm personally not too interested in the machine or the controller unless steam games became more lounge social. I enjoy playing little big planet etc in a group but I never liked playing multiplayer COD on ps3.
I am however really interested in steam OS, I've always wondered if someone could hack windows into being less hungry in the background and I guess the answer is "it's easier to just use linux" which is saying a lot. Valve are going to have to convince developers to move away from directx into whatever they're developing for linux, openGL or something?
I think what valve are doing is really smart, especially if they can get on board with the PS4/XBONE developers. If they can structure steamOS so it's as good or better than a console to develop for then we might just see AAA games landing really nicely back into the PC market.
Also it's all wonderfully open and free, valve are releasing the CAD files for their first prototype machine so we can hack it how we want. the controller is designed to be hacked too.
This all seems familiar to that Ouya thing that popped up and seems to have died down a bit...
What do you guys reckon? Think valve have moved in the right direction? think it will work? is this the new generation of PC master race?
-
There's no discussion because there's still no info on the hardware. Nothing I've seen anyway.
I just hope to fuck (for the sake of PC gaming) that they're better spec'd than the steaming pile of utter feces that are the Piston Xi3's.
Over priced, useless boxes of turds they are.
-
There's no discussion because there's still no info on the hardware. Nothing I've seen anyway.
I just hope to fuck (for the sake of PC gaming) that they're better spec'd than the steaming pile of utter feces that are the Piston Xi3's.
Over priced, useless boxes of turds they are.
che-che-check it:
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/steamuniverse#announcements/detail/2145128928746175450
Here are the specifications for Valve's 300 prototypes.
The 300 prototype units will ship with the following components:
GPU: some units with NVidia Titan, some GTX780, some GTX760, and some GTX660
CPU: some boxes with Intel i7-4770, some i5-4570, and some i3
RAM: 16GB DDR3-1600 (CPU), 3GB GDDR5 (GPU)
Storage: 1TB/8GB Hybrid SSHD
Power Supply: Internal 450w 80Plus Gold
Dimensions: approx. 12 x 12.4 x 2.9 in high
I would stress the prototype aspect, and by launch time (next year?) much of this tech will be looking middle of the road, GTX 660 and 16GB ram especially.
The hardware isn't propriety, a home made steam machine ought to cost as much as a home made PC, a pre-built ought to be cheaper, though that depends on what model you follow.
I'm not too worried about the hardware though (oooh I picked a bad title for this thread) my PC is already my "living room" PC, it's in my study where I consume all my media....and occasionally I do some study and work.
-
Oh thank god...
Have you read up about the Pistons? Fucking on-chip AMD's starting at 1K USD...
-
Oh thank god...
Have you read up about the Pistons? Fucking on-chip AMD's starting at 1K USD...
Yeah I did after your post :)
Saw a pic of them on engadget a few weeks ago and didn't think much of it. Still don't. I'm not sure what piston are thinking tbh....a grand for a crap HTPC?
The only thing steamOS means to me is another boot partition with an OS more dedicated to gaming bringing better performance. But don't get me wrong, I'm excited about that!
-
Any of you guys jumped through the hoops to get eligible for the hardware beta?
-
Any of you guys jumped through the hoops to get eligible for the hardware beta?
Nah, I'm gonna rock SteamOS asap though.
Might even get an SSD to celebrate too
-
The controller makes sense, but to me the rest of it just doesn't.
Is Valve thinking everyone is going to build a Steam PC for the living room to play their titles and other linux games, then also build another Windows box to stream every other AAA+ game?
And if you were planning on just building a single gaming PC, why would you use SteamOS ?
-
The controller makes sense, but to me the rest of it just doesn't.
Is Valve thinking everyone is going to build a Steam PC for the living room to play their titles and other linux games, then also build another Windows box to stream every other AAA+ game?
And if you were planning on just building a single gaming PC, why would you use SteamOS ?
So you have directx right, it's made by microsoft and you have to license it.
You have OpenGL too, which is free.
Already valve have ported some of their games to opengl, TF2, L4D2 plus a few more, probably as a proof of concept. It appears blizzard got on board too and ported dota2 as well. I would speculate that valve are tickling up opengl development, something it has needed for a while as its nearly dead in the water. I would further speculate that they intend to market their ticked up opengl to AAA console game devs, hoping to make the porting process from console to PC easier. Easier than it would be for the new PS4 and XBONE games to be ported to directx. Keep in mind too one of the cool new things about the new consoles is that they are basically a PC, and developing games for them is suppose to be very similar to developing software for a PC.
I think valve are taking on a lot more than just consoles...
Also from the steamOS page:
Hundreds of great games are already running natively on SteamOS. Watch for announcements in the coming weeks about all the AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS in 2014.
Which depends on what you consider to be a AAA title...
I would loooooooove to hear Bells take on this....hang on I'll see if I can find him in Lithuania or something....
-
So Valve is just trying to use it to pry devs away from directx and a majority of gamers will continue to use Windows as it offers best of both worlds with directx and opengl support.
-
It appears blizzard got on board too and ported dota2 as well.
Valve made Dota2
-
Knowing what its about, possibly a hoax.
But earlier this week, Half Life 3 was trademarked on some random site, but the trademark was later removed from the website. But now a Portal 3 has been listed under the same company on the website.
While it might be a joke or not, it costs around 1000 pounds to do that, So unless Kim Dotcom is fucking with us, Could be on its way. With L4D3 being in development, I can't wait. :P
^ This post shows I didn't actually read this thread when I posted this. It sounds so out of place. huehuehue
Fuck your technological discussion. <3
-
Blizzard have their own MOBA that they've modeled after DotA now that Valve are using their IP again (DotA 2).
Blizzard All-Stars it's called.
-
So Valve is just trying to use it to pry devs away from directx and a majority of gamers will continue to use Windows as it offers best of both worlds with directx and opengl support.
I suspect, though I could be wrong:
I think PC gamers ought to comply. Ideally all the AAA games would be on steamOS, and steamOS ought to run better for us. Aside from sheer FPS performance, if valve go really hardcore on their optimisation we could see game drive spaces reduce in size, better support for multi screen, a better content delivery system (even better than steam already?!?), even little things like alt-tabbing during game play and overlay apps like voip could be optimised and be amazingly seamless.
Although, I have just been zooming around the internet for the last hour or so reading articles.
It seems as though microsoft has killed XNA, which helped xbox 360 devs to port/develop for directx and xbox360.
It seems this was because it had xbone in the works and xbone uses directx11.1 + some xbone bits.
PS4 uses opengl + some tickled sony bits.
The biggest threat is therefore to microsoft, but microsft have numbers where steamos saves development time.
So it's basically microsoft featuring xbone and windows 8.1 facing off against ps4 and steamos.....I don't even know any more.
Valve made Dota2
Oh, I just cast my eye over the list of linux/opengl games, saw DOTA2, warcraft, blizzard....my mistake!
-
So Valve is just trying to use it to pry devs away from directx and a majority of gamers will continue to use Windows as it offers best of both worlds with directx and opengl support.
I don't really have that much to add I think the above sums up what Valve is doing and what will happen in the near term.
But I admire the effort, I think we would all be better off having openGL as the standard it's pretty fucked we all need to use windows just because the underlying graphics libs are owned by one company.
Since everything is now using standard pc architecture there really isn't much difference between a phone, a computer or a console. So if all games were based the same open gfx standards, porting would be fucking easy, development costs would be lower and shit would get done quicker. Your favourite games would be playable on any of your devices assuming they had the processing power to support it.
So go Valve.
-
As a side note I am now living in the UK :P
-
As a side note I am now living in the UK :P
Bell is a side note.
(http://noprisonersnomercy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sidenote.JPG)
-
Bell is a side note.
([url]http://noprisonersnomercy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/sidenote.JPG[/url])
that is actually a side Quaver - seeing as it isn't placed on a Stave, it can't really be called a side note.
Source - I know my music Theory
-
that is actually a side Quaver - seeing as it isn't placed on a Stave, it can't really be called a side note.
Source - I know my music Theory
TDL is a Quaver.
(http://www.cinemasnacks.co.uk/images/114073.jpg)
-
TDL is a Quaver.
([url]http://www.cinemasnacks.co.uk/images/114073.jpg[/url])
Eugh
Give me Walkers Salt and Vinegar any day
-
So go Valve.
Yay Bell!
As a side note I am now living in the UK :P
Yay UK! I didn't like you living in that ghastly georgia. You were far too close to the extremists the CNN tells us about.
-
Yay Bell!
Yay UK! I didn't like you living in that ghastly georgia. You were far too close to the extremists the CNN tells us about.
I would say the UK is closer to the Extremists.....
-
I would say the UK is closer to the Extremists.....
There's the punchline!
-
I would say the UK is closer to the Extremists.....
There's the punchline!
-
its*
Looks cool. We will see though I guess.
-
The controller makes sense, but to me the rest of it just doesn't.
Is Valve thinking everyone is going to build a Steam PC for the living room to play their titles and other linux games, then also build another Windows box to stream every other AAA+ game?
And if you were planning on just building a single gaming PC, why would you use SteamOS ?
You sound mad, and uninformed.
Valve being valve, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a sexup on wine or crossover transparently launching non-valve non-linux games.
Time will tell.
So Valve is just trying to use it to pry devs away from directx and a majority of gamers will continue to use Windows as it offers best of both worlds with directx and opengl support.
You mean like how PS4 is different to Xbox?
Provided valve provide a tidy and simple toolkit to base work in, I can see developers following on.
Which leads us to:
So if all games were based the same open gfx standards, porting would be fucking easy, development costs would be lower and shit would get done quicker. Your favourite games would be playable on any of your devices assuming they had the processing power to support it.
This (<3 Bell). Cross platform is more of a thing than ever before. The easier it is to do this, the more devs will go for it.
DirectX is well known for being a shit API. Although it's come much cleaner and much more popular in recent years, it still has it's many flaws. Because it's toted as the king of the stack though people get this crap idea that opengl simply can't compete. Which is lies. When DX10 was launched opengl already had the capability for many of it's 'new' eye-candies. Probably just didn't have as many extrapolation layers to make it as nice a dev experience. Dunno, ask Bell.
Of course my opinion is skewed somewhat for my personal preferences (eg. <3 Ryan Gordon), you should do your own googling.
OpenGL -> OpenGL ES or somesuch would surely be a much smaller use in resources than going from DX->Ogl.
Saying that no one makes games for the platform Valve are planning on pushing is nothing more than a bit of a straw man. In the past there has generally been less to no interest in linux as a gaming platform, sure. But as humble bundles and the like show, it's not unprofitable. Now take one of the world's biggest gaming coporations and have them push this platform out to thousands of consumers previously oblivious to the likes of linux & open source... suddenly it's no worse than many other options.
The fact that it is linux is also largely irrelevant due to the fact that it doesn't matter what platform it is at all. Those who know, know. And those who don't, doesn't matter - they're users, not tech geeks like us. Personal preference flies out the window because it purely comes down to the interface, which Valve is developing.
tl;dr, nice toolkit, devs happy. nice ui, users happy. leveraging huge existing userbase, suddenly a viable platform.
-
1/4 of the way through this article.
http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/10/05/exploring-valves-masterplan-on-steamos-steam-machines-and-the-future-of-the-pc/2/
-
what, this?
"The open nature of SteamOS allows for the possibility of a lightweight version being installed directly onto TVs. "
Stubbornly refusing to read article because it's needlessly on 4 pages.
***
fuck you curiosity.
Apart from latency issues, linux does most of this stuff already. PulseAudio streams sound, wayland does a better job of streaming video feeds than X, one can already divvy up mice and keyboards between instances. Things are getting better and better. The news that valve could push a whole fucking game through a pipe like this and still have it be responsive is the sexy part.
It's like all my linux nerd dreams have come true by Valve working in it.
PS. That article makes it sound more like it's setting itself up to be a small step to jump to a competitor for the likes of netflix, itunes and pay television.
Which wouldn't be all that bad.
-
You sound mad, and uninformed.
Valve being valve, I wouldn't be surprised if they have a sexup on wine or crossover transparently launching non-valve non-linux games.
Time will tell.
Not mad but maybe uniformed.
From what I saw on the SteamOS page their solution was to stream from a Windows box, kinda like a non portable Nvidia shield. Nothing about wine or crossover launching thingy.
You mean like how PS4 is different to Xbox?
Provided valve provide a tidy and simple toolkit to base work in, I can see developers following on.
Like if a OS existed that could play both PS and Xbox games, as a consumer why would you buy either console.
Until the day arrives when everyone/majority is using OpenGL to develop I see it as a bit of hard sell to your average non technical customer, who is left wondering why some Steam titles work on their Steam Box and others don't but they do on their mates Windows machine with Steam on it. They just want COD:Ghosts to run not muck about with some twin system steaming solution, they don't care about the technology behind it they just want it to work.
But then again I guess someone big has to put up their hand first and push the hard sell otherwise nothing will ever happen and Valve does have the cash and balls to do it.
-
Crossover launchy thingy is pure speculation on my part. It's one way I could see non linux native games not being completely ignored.
OpenGL was the standard. Quake used it. Half Life (and all it's mods like CS) used it. UT used it. Most engines run with it (cf Unity, id Tech 5, Unreal Engine, et al). DirectX simply pushed in with an almost literal sense, marketing and all that.
Back when games were good most things ran on OpenGL or had options for either tech. It wasn't until Dx 9 at least that they started supporting it directly on the hardware (as opposed to OpenGL, which has mostly always been there since 3D gaming became a big thing).
Now things are swinging back the other way with the likes of HTML5 etc. getting APIs for OpenGL, I can certainly see it becoming the first choice for developers again.
Personally I don't think a customer gives a shit which tech is used, so long as the game works. And if they do, they do. It's a convenience factor for most folk, such is why they buy consoles in the first place.
As for streaming solutions and the like, I would bet that no matter what it ends up being, it'll be easy for non techy folk to do.
I'm not hanging out for steam box, but I'm certainly very interested in it. Not fanatic, but excited one might say. Not so much because I want one, but for what it could mean to the industry at large. Especially when you hear Mr Gabe Newell talk about steam and what they're researching around it. It might surprise you. http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/02/01/gabe-newell-on-removing-valve-from-steam/
-
Video showing the new controller in action....no HD....sort it out valve...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeAjkbNq4xI
I could....possibly see me on the couch playing a game like civ or AOE....but unlikely....
-
Oh god, track pads?
Fuck that nasty noise. My thumbs and fingers are never silky smooth.
I like my tactile feedback.
-
It has haptical feedback.
There's no way to get the precision without using trackpads.
-
I still don't like the idea of a trackpad. Dragging my thumbs/fingers creating friction bothers me.
-
[ATTACH=CONFIG]7988[/ATTACH]
such great design. . .
-
Oh god, track pads?
Fuck that nasty noise. My thumbs and fingers are never silky smooth.
I like my tactile feedback.
They dont look like just track pads though, I think they're a bit smarter than the usual trackpad?
Don't get me wrong, I'm still not sold, any couch gaming I MAY do on steamOS would be with a logitech K400
[ATTACH=CONFIG]7988[/ATTACH]
such great design. . .
Something wrong with your other 5 fingers? (see what I did there?!?)
-
Yeah, I'm guessing they're not simple trackpads. It's just the gesture of sweeping my finger across an open area in order to generate movement. There's no feedback you get from a stick.
I don't play games on my cellphone for that very reason.
-
[ATTACH=CONFIG]7988[/ATTACH]
such great design. . .
Still in development.
These are concepts - prototypes.
Yeah, I'm guessing they're not simple trackpads. It's just the gesture of sweeping my finger across an open area in order to generate movement. There's no feedback you get from a stick.
I don't play games on my cellphone for that very reason.
Yeah, each to their own. Personally I dislike sticks when it comes to precision type movements. But it also depends what you're used to I guess.
I agree that you don't get the same feedback, and phone games are generally crap.
-
creating friction bothers me.
Haha yeah right...
-
BF loves linux.
http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/12/4826190/linux-only-needs-one-killer-game-to-explode-says-battlefield-director
-
"We love it! But we didn't develop for it."
I wonder if they will next time around, or if there's pressure from the parent company with what direction they'll take.
Cool to see that servers are finally back where they belong though.
-
Oh so yeah. Been watching a lot of vids from the Gabe Newell lately. Very interesting direction Valve has opted to take. Also very cool.
Gabe Newell: On Productivity, Economics, Political Institutions, and the Future of Corporations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td_PGkfIdIQ#ws)
-
TLDW can you summarise?
-
Sure, it goes like this:
Long, but worth it. Very interesting.
-
How many nerds will watch it and see him blink his eye 3 times in 3 minutes... OMG HL3!
-
I kid, I kid.
Gabe starts out with a bit of History.
eg. ID software managed to out distribute a massive corporation (ie, Doom sold more copies than Windows).
Gabe thinks about this and finds it interesting. Some philosophy and economics ensue.
Basically, Valve are an 'egotistical company' who likes to think they're in the top rank, and can give every other top tier game producer a run for their money. And in all fairness they can.
But even Valve can't compete with the content created by their own user base.
Mods, levels, weapons, HATS. Not just shit crap slapped together either. Decent content.
There's one chap in the US somewhere that rakes in some 150,000 a year or something just by making hats.
So they hired an econimist.
Gabe Newell is learning all about prediciton markets.
Turns out that snipping a wee bit off of a lot of small transactions is generally 3 times (or more) profitable than selling a locked down product.
Gabe (and the rest of Valve) hate the shit out of windows because it tries to crush this.
The PC is an open platform that has allowed them to become the software giant they are.
Being open helps them continue to remain in their top spot where so many have fallen before.
It also makes them adaptable for future developments (eg, fuck RIAA and it taking 10+ years until iTunes store came along and they finally figured out the internet is not the enemy - although this isn't mentioned in the vid).
So Valve are beginning on focussing on giving back to the community from which they've gleaned so much.
The more people are interested in using their platform and/or service, the more they innovate & create, the more it benefits everyone.
So that brings up things like how to increase user productivity, create scarsity and value around virtual goods. And that's all wortheless without persistence, so they have to make them persist beyond the game itself. (ie, steam marketplace, trading cards, etc, etc).
And their focus on Linux. Because fuck Windows and fuck DirectX (both closed, locked & propietary systems).
This is all from the top of my head, I actually watched the video about 2 months ago.
-
So the fallout of all this gets me wondering why retards (err, people, a scary amount of poeple, including high profile game developers that should know better) think that Direct3D is superior to OpenGL (like actually superior, not just that they're trained in DirectX and don't want to reskill).
The short answer is that they're fucking wrong.
The long answer is very complex and ends up with Direct3D being maybe SLIGHTLY better, but of course microsoft only. So windows for the most part and Xbox. But this is after YEARS (over a decade) of playing 'catchup'.
OpenGL in essence can do every single thing Direct3D can do, and generally faster (see Valve benchmarks during adventures porting Source engine)
It in basically all boils down to Microsoft issuing a giant smeer campaign on the "competitor's" (Originally OpenGL was from SGI, now it's of course... 'open' [Khronos group, whatever]) technology, and literally actually crippling it's ability to perform (as) well since vista onwards.
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX (http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX)
(if interested in gamedev [Tiwa, Bell] they have a bunch of other very interesting stuff on the blog in general)
People have bought into this, which reduces the skillset available for folks in the more 'open' arena, and Valve find this detractive to their industry as a whole.
It's kinda cool to see a large company have the balls to stand up with this ideology, and actually prove it's possible (as opposed to stay closed and reap in the dosh while they can before they fall over but retire rich - mentioned by Gabe Newell in previously posted vid).
-
Lost a lot of interest in Valve lately because of Gabe's new holier than thou attitude.
"The customers want HL3 but we've decided not to make HL3 even though we promised it because that's not what the customers want".
So I resort to calling him a giant fatty and it makes me feel better.
-
Lost a lot of interest in Valve lately because of Gabe's new holier than thou attitude.
"The customers want HL3 but we've decided not to make HL3 even though we promised it because that's not what the customers want".
So I resort to calling him a giant fatty and it makes me feel better.
Much rather have LFD3 than HL3
-
LFD3 would be great. Feel like a new fun multiplayer to replace the grind that is dota2.
-
Lost a lot of interest in Valve lately because of Gabe's new holier than thou attitude.
"The customers want HL3 but we've decided not to make HL3 even though we promised it because that's not what the customers want".
So I resort to calling him a giant fatty and it makes me feel better.
I'd rather have a better platform, and then HL3 than HL3 and then no more games because consoles is easier.
HL3 will come, but valve are just a tad busy securing a future for us right now....patience 'tardo shh shh
Also how does that new AMD thing fit into this model? is it just a wrapper around directx that manages the memory?
-
Lost a lot of interest in Valve lately because of Gabe's new holier than thou attitude.
"The customers want HL3 but we've decided not to make HL3 even though we promised it because that's not what the customers want".
So I resort to calling him a giant fatty and it makes me feel better.
I don't see it like that. I see a company with shifting values, which is fine. Especially when can only find the new values most agreeable. They're still doing their thing, just a bit slower I guess (well hope, at least).
He doesn't act like a giant 'praise me' knob, which is fine. But if it makes you feel better it's hurting no one I suppose :)
-
(http://gaspull.geeksaresexytech.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/tb5.jpg)
-
dat decay. It's like their fanbase's hope tbh.
-
I don't see it like that. I see a company with shifting values, which is fine. Especially when can only find the new values most agreeable. They're still doing their thing, just a bit slower I guess (well hope, at least).
He doesn't act like a giant 'praise me' knob, which is fine. But if it makes you feel better it's hurting no one I suppose :)
PRAISE THE GABEN! LORD OF ALL, WORSHIPPED BY ALL PC MASTER RACE!
-
Well I'm not buttfuck console brain retarded, so no.