Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

I could do with a beer right about now.

[laurasaur]

so the religion i just spent my life preaching about is wrong, everything i have ever told to anyone is a lie, and when i release this information, there would be a GREAT chance that every religion would go into complete denial, or even worse, try to ruin the so called "real" religion.

so does 1 person being selfish, in keeping the "truth" to himself, and not ruining EVERY religion bar one, including his own. Or is he being slefish in ruining everyones beliefs and ideas, bar one religion.

Think about the share scale of this, all the non-believers, have to now believe, or fight to prove its not.

really the only people not affected are the atheists.

I have no religious bone in my body, maybe thats why i see it differently, but i see that if info like that was released, that the biggest, and probably most violent war the world has ever seen would start, and the worst thing is it would be mate against mate, not country vs counrty, so the war would have no boundries.

i totally see where you're coming from. but personally I would do everything I could to tell anyone, even if it totally got me killed

[Darkov]

Perhaps we should be asking why people believe in what they do?

What makes you so certain there is a god, he's looking after you (apart from family feuds, unfortunate storms etc. etc.)

I think Karl Marx summed it up best when he said "Religion is the opiate of the masses." When you think about it, even if you are religious, it's true. People look to religion for comfort, to justify killing others etc.

As sacredpossum aluded to above, it's used by a small number of people as a means of gaining power and control over a large number of people. People weren't very educated in the years after Rome's fall. They could be easily seduced by magic tricks with simple powders and had no reason to believe that hell/heaven didn't exist. They would prefer to believe it.


And laura, virus evolution can happen. Just because Dr. Zheng or any of the others say it's un-true, doesn't necessarily make it wrong. Everybody thought Galileo and the other early astronomers were off their nuts. Of course, those who believe in evolution could be wrong, but who's to say what is happening and what's not?

Virus evolution is a subfield of evolutionary biology that is specifically concerned with the evolution of viruses. Many viruses, in particular RNA viruses, have fairly high mutation rates (on the order of one point mutation or more per genome per round of replication in RNA viruses) and short generation times. As a consequence of the elevated mutation rate, combined with natural selection, many viruses can adapt to changes in their environment within months. Virus evolution is an important aspect of the epidemiology of viral diseases such as influenza, HIV, hepatitis, and many others. It also causes problems in the development of successful antiviral drugs, as resistant mutations often appear within weeks to months after the beginning of the treatment.

Apart from the obvieous objectors (the author of that article you linked to) many scientists believe that when a Virus becomes resistant to anti-biotics, it is evolving as you can put no "rules" on evolution, it is a natural process that does not have to conform to physical laws. Especially when it's been around for a hell of a lot longer than us. Just because it doesn't fit current thinking you can't discount it.

With anything we don't understand, it's so easy for religious types to go "Oh...yeah, that was us, we did it all." Funny, since at least evolutionists can come up with theories, not just think up some mystical creation story that cannot even be looked at scientifically.

Here's my favourite example. A child is scared by something, perhaps a storm or such, nothing they have control over. In their pre-school years, a common practice is to "adopt" an imaginary friend. Someone they can consult in confidence and naturally feel more secure as they're not by themselves as it were.

Now, developing humans could not explain everything that happened but they wanted to. They might feel safer if they believed that everything in their environment was controlled by an ethereal being. It has been suggested that religion flourished at the time the human brain was on a comparable developmental stage with that of a five-year-olds.

In any case, I doubt any of us will be converting any time soon. Personally, even though there are some flaws with the evidence, an evolutionary theory makes more sense than something we apparently "cannot see nor comprehend." and people are blindly led on like sheep by "enlighted individuals" who apparently have it all sorted out and take money from people who are strung along on words and thoughts rather than evidence.

Especially when we dig up ruins of ancient humanoids that have DNA that is at least a 97% match to ours...

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

I believe in God because I have nothing to lose in not beliving in him, and becasue there has to be something more to our existance

[laurasaur]

Because if he's right, this is all you have, EVER, the most precious gift of life and we're wasting it earning money, retiring, growing old and dying with nothing to look forward to This is it.

People have different ideas of what hell is too. Everything from the vision of Tartarus through to fire and brimstone, through to being in a place entirely devoid of God's love... I guess it depends what you believe, what's yours?

Netherai.

Well if he's right then we're all in the same boat, not just me. At least im having a good time of myself not taking things to seriously and enjoying being with.doing the things i love, unlike some other people

I believe... I dont know, it doesnt explicitly state what hell is like, I just imagine it being rather unpleasant. Somewhere I dont ppplan on going, thats fo rsure

[laurasaur]

trying to prove/disprove anyones individual religious beliefs, or turn someone as such, is just NEVER going to work.

Laura can tell me till she is blue in the face that GOD exisits, and that im going to hell, and i will continue to laugh and drink my beer. Laura may intrun feel pity or hatred for me, as maybe my head isint on straight, or maybe i have just been blinded by ignorance. But they are her beliefs, and her choice, as long as she is not trying to force anything on me, i will quite happily read all the info put in front of me, as it all makes a bloody good read (apart from the bible, tried once, meh as much fun as using my nuts for a cue ball).

But if heaven and hell do exsist, and God is meant to be the all forgiving and died for our sins, then doenst that make every sinner elegiable for heaven anyway? regardless of how good or bad we are?

No, you must ask forgiveness for your sins if you want a piece of the pie, and know that jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins. I think my time in this thread is done, lol dont worry im not trying to convert or change anyone's believes here, just say what I think is the truth. Doesnt bother me in the slightest if you dont agree, peace out guys  :rnr:

[Xt1ncT]

I don't belive in God as you can probably tell. But i do like what Bono says in Rattle and Hum

"The God I believe in isn't short of cash MISTER"

One of my biggest gripes with religion is the corruption within it. Catholic priests molesting little boys, Churches like the Jesus Army in Northampton getting members to sell everything they have and give all the money to them, Mormons making you pay a "tithe" - ok so they don't make you, but it's pretty much expected of you.

Anyway, enough from me on this subject, I will finish with this.....believe what you want to, and what you think its right, if that makes your life better and easier then it's all good.

[Xt1ncT]

and becasue there has to be something more to our existance

Why?? I hear this all the time from my Step-Dad.

But I always answer the same. Why does there have to be a point? To me that's something religious people say to justify religion.

You're born, you live, you die. Simple, to the point. There isn't a reason for life, there isn't a point to existence, it just is.

Sorry, sorry, i know I said that's all I had to say, but that one annoys me...!!! LOL

[Xt1ncT]

and know that jesus died on the cross to forgive our sins.

If that is the case, why do we need to ask forgiveness? Didn't Jesus do it for us already?? If not, what was the point in him doing it??

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

I don't belive in God as you can probably tell. But i do like what Bono says in Rattle and Hum

"The God I believe in isn't short of cash MISTER"

One of my biggest gripes with religion is the corruption within it. Catholic priests molesting little boys, Churches like the Jesus Army in Northampton getting members to sell everything they have and give all the money to them, Mormons making you pay a "tithe" - ok so they don't make you, but it's pretty much expected of you.

Anyway, enough from me on this subject, I will finish with this.....believe what you want to, and what you think its right, if that makes your life better and easier then it's all good.

I agree with you there, I'm against the whole concept of orginsed religion, people should not be told what to belive, it should be something people need to work out for themselves.

[Growler]

I agree with you there, I'm against the whole concept of orginsed religion, people should not be told what to belive, it should be something people need to work out for themselves.

yep, if someone sees some divine image or has a religious experience (stigmatic people for example) and they or viewers become religious because of it, good for them.

But children that are forced to go to church beacuse their parents do is a bit rough. Should they not be left till a age that they have true understanding and knowledge, then given all the info of all the different religions and let them make a choice form there?

I know this would never happen, but would be nice in a perfect world i spose.

If i can ask laura, were you bought up in religion, or is it a path you chose at an age when you were able to understand all the meanings etc?

[sacredpossum]

Well if he's right then we're all in the same boat, not just me. At least im having a good time of myself not taking things to seriously and enjoying being with.doing the things i love, unlike some other people

you think that u have  to be christian to have fun? isn't it like the opposite heheh

[Darkov]

Lol yeah, each to their own but christianity sounds boring.

[bloodyYOKEL-NZ]

possum are you saying christians dont have fun? I PLAY VIOLENT GAMES! How can i not have fun?

4 pages since my last post! i really cant keep up.

can someone summarise what we are talking about so far?

as i skim through the posts i still see nothing new, same facts, same excuses on all sides.

Darkov making usual facts on evolution, best i have seen but im still not amused. You still have alot to consider, im not going to quote ALL those huge fantastically long posts however.

laura doing well to append her reasons but shes a one man team, people determine what is right from the amount of other people who agree with it. So only more are going to pile on the evolution bandwagon.

verrt making very philisophical statements, basically putting bananas in people paths

your all pretty much thinking inside the tetrahedrapolydecatrigon.

Me however, still on the defensive but im more interested in setting up the obstacle course.
For starters, has anyone ever heard of string theory? very intruiging

the way i see it, it is very much possible the course described by religeon has enough similarities to evolution, enough for a lone fanatic to create the biggest mistake on the world, a new faith built on the historical and unkown reality of religeon, the science behind religeon claimed as something else. Since theres no possible way anyone could understand what i mean by this, i will leave gradual clues for people to discover.

the below diagram is my first clue, i will record and note how you react to it

[laurasaur]

yep, if someone sees some divine image or has a religious experience (stigmatic people for example) and they or viewers become religious because of it, good for them.

But children that are forced to go to church beacuse their parents do is a bit rough. Should they not be left till a age that they have true understanding and knowledge, then given all the info of all the different religions and let them make a choice form there?

I know this would never happen, but would be nice in a perfect world i spose.

If i can ask laura, were you bought up in religion, or is it a path you chose at an age when you were able to understand all the meanings etc?

Good question. No I was not brought up in religion, at all. My family is the most staunchly aethestic/evolutionist people you will ever meet. I "chose this path" last year.

[laurasaur]

you think that u have  to be christian to have fun? isn't it like the opposite heheh

no lol, im not saying that at all. 99% of my life I have been unchristian (or whatever) and i had a hell of alot of fun xcuse the pun people tend to think that christians dont have fun i have lots...

[Black Heart]

peopel tend to think christians (really devote ones) who utterly devote themselves to religion are no fun, and are sadly wasting their lives, you see if xt1nct is right and we're meat, then we rot. life is all you have if you spend your entire life pleasing your god, then you've wasted it.

then again how is your life not wasted?

[bloodyYOKEL-NZ]

i just realised there is quote material right in front of me

You're born, you live, you die. Simple, to the point. There isn't a reason for life, there isn't a point to existence, it just is.

you wont find the point if you dont look for it

If that is the case, why do we need to ask forgiveness? Didn't Jesus do it for us already?? If not, what was the point in him doing it??

first of all your the sinner, not him. He made an example for us to follow. hypothetically let his hand out to you. But you smacked that hand away, why should he cover for you?

he did it because he cared and if noone else does then it serves you right if you end up in hell anyway. Hes is like Morpheus "i can only show you the door, you have to walk through it"

agree with you there, I'm against the whole concept of orginsed religion, people should not be told what to belive, it should be something people need to work out for themselves.

your arent, my parents dont force me to go to church. i choose to go with them. But i get told what to beleive in biology class. Would you be against that too?

And if you havnt noticed, i am letting you work it out for yourselves. i am posting just general theories and philosophies. you dont see me bible bashing, or in darkovs case: science manual bashing.

But children that are forced to go to church beacuse their parents do is a bit rough. Should they not be left till a age that they have true understanding and knowledge, then given all the info of all the different religions and let them make a choice form there?

I know this would never happen, but would be nice in a perfect world i spose

FYI: alot of good christians already do this. And they raise quite succesful families too from what i have seen.

peopel tend to think christians (really devote ones) who utterly devote themselves to religion are no fun, and are sadly wasting their lives, you see if xt1nct is right and we're meat, then we rot. life is all you have if you spend your entire life pleasing your god, then you've wasted it.

how can you waste your life if your happy with it? People devoted to god are truly happy. most of the people in our chuch are literally worry free. You think that way because you have nothing to live for, christians do. So if you want to think your a peice of rotting meat then thats all you will be, id say your wasting your life. The god theory means we are here for a reason, so we put our presence to use.

if what you mean is we spend too much of our time bottled up in churches, then would you be shocked if i said catholic priests actualy do get out of their robes and attend amusement parks and watch scary movies regularly?

[laurasaur]

peopel tend to think christians (really devote ones) who utterly devote themselves to religion are no fun, and are sadly wasting their lives, you see if xt1nct is right and we're meat, then we rot. life is all you have if you spend your entire life pleasing your god, then you've wasted it.

then again how is your life not wasted?

dude, everyone lives life differently. im doing what i want with mine, and if I wasnt id be pissed off that I was wasting it. But isint that the same for you

Just htought id clarify a few things even though i said i wouldnt post in this thread anymore...

i was not raised a christian
im far from cathlic (spelling?)
and im far from "religious" in the traditional sense of the word
and, im not gonna judge you on how u live your life, u can go kill - steal - fornicate how and wherever u like

[Darkov]

yes, ive been making aboslutely giant posts, and then i have to come up with more intricate replies back. one of my bigger posts i went to bed thinking "ha, try weasel out of that" and laura did, and it made sense sort of. so then i had to get searching for more stuff and it goes on and on and on.

anyway, my interpretation of the meaning of life is really basic. simply, to pass on DNA, to replicate. not very romantic but when you boil down to it, it is the meaning of life for if we didn't do it, there would be no life to mean.

noooo not string theory...omg thats nuts, they tie themselves in patterns and knots etc.
i was shocked enough to discover last year that electrons dont go in nice neat orbits, we don't even know where they are at all and then you've got quarks and then they divide into something else and omg...crazy

[laurasaur]

one of my bigger posts i went to bed thinking "ha, try weasel out of that" and laura did, and it made sense sort of.

im cool, i know  :rnr:  :asian: hahah

[bloodyYOKEL-NZ]

noooo not string theory...omg thats nuts, they tie themselves in patterns and knots etc.
i was shocked enough to discover last year that electrons dont go in nice neat orbits, we don't even know where they are at all and then you've got quarks and then they divide into something else and omg...crazy

i like your attitude, im going to find other theories and see what you think of them.

[edit]
have you seen this

[dirtyape]

Ok, i'm pissed. Was about to post a reply this morning and the power went out, I forgot about the scheduled power outage. Then just as i'd retyped most of it the power went out again. Then shit really hit the fan and i've been up all night fixing things at work. Things keep conspiring against me, in fact while i'm writing this my lcd flickered and has now turned blood red. Portent? lol

1. God and the universe and causality
I believe that a critical part of religous belief is as laura said "the universe has a beginning, all beginnings need a cause". There is a driving need for us to believe something caused the universe to exist. We live in a world of cause and effect.

But according to big bang theory the initial state of the universe had to be singularity. A singularity is unbound by the laws of physics. So the laws of causality do not apply. Causality is a function of the universe - so really the beginning of the universe was the beginning of causality. It must be so. Time did not exist prior to the universe and without time there can be no causality.

My point - the universe does not need a cause and therefore does not need a creator. The introduction of god is a variable which is surpurfluous to the universal equation. It is not required and should therefore be eliminated.

The universe is my creator. It created all I see. It's as simple as that.

2. I had some other points about evolution, logic, hypothesis/theory, and more but I'm behind this in this thread and don't want to repeat others. Also i don't have time right now.


Oh, and btw, now i'm tripple pissed now. The power outage that took out my pc at lunchtime also took out a power conditioner. Which caused a series of unfortunate events. I'm still at work at 0545hrs.  And i'll be here until lunch today. :cussing:

[sacredpossum]

if what you mean is we spend too much of our time bottled up in churches, then would you be shocked if i said catholic priests actualy do get out of their robes and attend amusement parks and watch scary movies regularly?

i wouldn't be shocked, they have to pull in those little boys somehow!

muahaha

i do think that christians have fun, but i think that some of them have the most fun when they are trying to ruin things for everybody else, ie always trying to stop movies from coming out, harry potter, etc, they have no right to do anything like that

[pukeko]

i wouldn't be shocked, they have to pull in those little boys somehow!

muahaha

Funny, but kinda not funny...  :sly: