Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline BerG

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IN THE PART THAT THE LION WILL NOT GROW FINS AND WILL DIE.

Reply #1600 Posted: April 02, 2007, 09:58:27 pm

Offline cobra

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Quote from: Brendan_Chipp;379491
How do you know? It's impossible to make a factual statement like that. You should have said "I believe god doesn't exist". That's correct, but you do not know that "god doesn't exist".



If something is irrelevant to reality then for all practical purposes it is not real - it does not exist. sure you can argue that there is a god that is untestable in every way - but in that case your "god" has no impact on reality and so might as well not exist.

If you are not an emotionally and intellectually complete person and the idea of a "space giant" helps you get to sleep then that's fine - i have a nephew who finds the idea of an imaginary friend (which i can not disprove) helps him out and that's fine - but like god his friend can never impact on anything.

Reply #1601 Posted: April 02, 2007, 09:59:46 pm

Offline BerG

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As for you people and this speak about faith in plane travel, travel by airline is FAR safer than by car.

Reply #1602 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:00:25 pm

Offline DooleysMagic

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Quote from: Brendan_Chipp;379468
Noone said anything about a "leap" of faith. By boarding the plane, you excercise faith, and a confidence that you will arrive safely at your designation. Your confidence is based around trust that the airline staff have fulfilled their duties properly. You have no evidence that this has happened, so boarding that plane is an act of faith.



I sure as hell do have evidence that the plane will not crash and kill me.
I live right by Wellington airport and have never seen a planecrash but I have seen plenty of planes takeoff and land safely.

Also...

Here's just a few stats (evidence) that I have about flying



Fatalities per million trips                                        Odds of being killed
  on a single trip
 
Airliner (Part 121)                                                 0.019 52.6 million to 1
Commuter Airline (Part 135 scheduled)                   1.72 581,395 to 1
Commuter Plane (Part 135 - Air taxi on demand)     6.10 163,934 to 1
General Aviation (Part 91)                                     13.3 73,187 to 1

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm
 

Now where's your evidence of God?

Reply #1603 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:06:04 pm
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Offline cobra

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Quote from: Zarathrustra;379499

Cobra - Doesn't water expand when it's frozen, so it's more of a thermal contraction?


Yeah - water expands when it is frozen, but also expands when it is heated - there is just not enough ice to raise the sea levels very much - The idea of the ice caps melting is a myth that i am fighting - put some ice in a cup and fill it to the brim - when the ice melts the cup will not overflow

Reply #1604 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:06:24 pm

Offline BerG

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New Zealands safety exceeds that shown above, we and Australia have some of the best aviation safety stats in the world.

Reply #1605 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:08:12 pm

Offline Brendan_Chipp

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Quote from: BerG;379508
IN THE PART THAT THE LION WILL NOT GROW FINS AND WILL DIE.

The shark and the lion will no doubt reign in their respective environments. This was the point, and not some side issue on global warming and rising water levels.

No need to shout. I might be approaching 40, but the hearing is still top notch. :bounce:

Reply #1606 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:08:15 pm

Offline Zarathrustra

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Quote from: DooleysMagic;379517

 

Now where's your evidence of God?

He doesn't need it - he has faith. :chuckle:

Reply #1607 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:08:46 pm

Offline BerG

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Quote from: cobra;379518
Yeah - water expands when it is frozen, but also expands when it is heated - there is just not enough ice to raise the sea levels very much - The idea of the ice caps melting is a myth that i am fighting - put some ice in a cup and fill it to the brim - when the ice melts the cup will not overflow



I'm sure if you fill the glass and have a block of ice sticking way up over the water surface, the water level will rise when it melts.

Obviously it wont rise if the ice is all underwater to start with.

Reply #1608 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:09:53 pm

Offline BerG

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Quote from: Brendan_Chipp;379521
The shark and the lion will no doubt reign in their respective environments. This was the point, and not some side issue on global warming and rising water levels.

No need to shout. I might be approaching 40, but the hearing is still top notch. :bounce:


But the water was rising and covering the land, so there was no land.

Who cares, this is rediculous.

Reply #1609 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:11:01 pm

Offline DooleysMagic

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Quote from: BerG;379520
New Zealands safety exceeds that shown above, we and Australia have some of the best aviation safety stats in the world.


Yeah I thought so but best to give him the worst possible results possible so he doesn't bring them up later and whine about it.

Reply #1610 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:12:23 pm
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Offline Brendan_Chipp

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Quote from: cobra;379510
If something is irrelevant to reality then for all practical purposes it is not real - it does not exist. sure you can argue that there is a god that is untestable in every way - but in that case your "god" has no impact on reality and so might as well not exist.

It's your opinion that God has not or cannot "impact" on anything, and I respect the opinions of another. You do not know this for a fact. You cannot define "reality" for humanity. You can define your "reality", and that's it. My point is that you're not making a factual statement, but expressing a personal opinion, and as I said, that's fine, but understand it for what it is.

Reply #1611 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:15:54 pm

Offline cobra

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Quote from: BerG;379527
I'm sure if you fill the glass and have a block of ice sticking way up over the water surface, the water level will rise when it melts.

Obviously it wont rise if the ice is all underwater to start with.


you cant have all the ice under the water - 10% will always be above the the water - but the ice is already displacing the same volume of water as it would if it was water

if you imagine yourself in the bath (or me if it helps), when you get in the bath you displace a certain volume of water - then you take a deep breath - increasing your volume but not mass - the water is still at the same level but you are floating a little higher.

Reply #1612 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:16:22 pm

Offline Brendan_Chipp

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Quote from: BerG;379528
But the water was rising and covering the land, so there was no land.

When did this happen? When was "there was no land"?
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Who cares, this is rediculous.

Don't start something that you can't finish.

Open a new thread if you want to debate climate change, and the impact of that on sea levels.

Reply #1613 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:18:06 pm

Offline Brendan_Chipp

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Quote from: DooleysMagic;379517
I sure as hell do have evidence that the plane will not crash and kill me.

That is a rediculous statement, and you're only fooling yourself. The fact of the matter is that planes crash and people die as a result. Air travel is safe, and yes, more safe than travelling in a car, but planes still crash, and people still die. Boarding a plane is an act of faith, by placing trust in the airline's staff that they have performed their function properly.

Pity the 21 killed in Indonesia recently didn't have your so called "evidence that the plane will not crash and kill me". :(
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Now where's your evidence of God?

Who said I had evidence of the existance of God? Where did I claim this?

Reply #1614 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:26:24 pm

Offline Simon_NZ

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you don't have faith when you board the plane, you have certainty based on past experience.

just face it dude, your wrong.

Reply #1615 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:27:04 pm

Offline cobra

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Quote from: Brendan_Chipp;379539
It's your opinion that God has not or cannot "impact" on anything, and I respect the opinions of another. You do not know this for a fact. You cannot define "reality" for humanity. You can define your "reality", and that's it. My point is that you're not making a factual statement, but expressing a personal opinion, and as I said, that's fine, but understand it for what it is.


can you tell me about the impact god has had? not through actions from people who believe in space fairy's or evidence from works of fiction (the bible)

you can argue that every thing is an opinion and there are no such things as facts and people will find it hard to disprove this but I am a scientist so if there is evidence i will accept it as a truth and if there is no evidence then i will reject it as a truth

I can make up a whole host of imaginary beasts and use the same augments for them as you use for your genie from heaven and rational and intelligent people will find it impossible to disprove them and i will be able to frustrate them by labeling there rational arguments as "an opinion"

Reply #1616 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:28:36 pm

Offline DooleysMagic

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....Soo to stay on topic Brendan where's your evidence of God? I have never once seen god reach down and pat me on the back or someone else for that matter.
Yet I have seen planes fly, oil and water emuslify (OMG magic), and many more things that you probably say require faith to believe in things working.
When it all boils down science has the answers.

On another point about science being hypocritical and constantly disproving itself, when was the last time that the Bible proved science wrong? I think you should look at Baldy's diagram with less of a closed mind that those people who believe in the "religion of Atheism" are knowing for having.

Reply #1617 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:33:21 pm
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Offline Black Heart

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i have no faith when i board the plane, i am relying on probability and taking the risk because the odds are in my favour. Faith has no effect on reality with a plane. If its motors are going to fall off at 30,000 feet my or anybodies faith wont change that.

Faith in a god changes your perception of reality, therefore it changes your reality. Good or bad.

Reply #1618 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:35:11 pm

Offline Brendan_Chipp

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Quote from: Zarathrustra;379523
He doesn't need it - he has faith. :chuckle:

That's my point, we all have and use this thing called faith, whether we know it or not.

I guess when you get on in life you realise that we as humans know sweet stuff nothing all about the universe we inhabit. The older I get, the issues I thought were black and white are now shades of grey. In some ways I slightly envy those who think they have a grasp on a subject such as this. I'm not writing anything off, and included in that is the possible existance of an entity known as God. To do so, without full knowledge of the universe, is in my opinion very foolish.

Reply #1619 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:35:38 pm

Offline Brendan_Chipp

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Quote from: Simon_NZ;379558
you don't have faith when you board the plane, you have certainty based on past experience.

You're excercising faith, whether you know it/like it.
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just face it dude, your wrong.

Wrong about what? Wrong about excercising faith when travelling on a plane?

Reply #1620 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:41:53 pm

Offline Zarathrustra

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I'm not writing anything off, and included in that is the possible existance of an entity known as God. To do so, without full knowledge of the universe, is in my opinion very foolish.

That comment I respect.  But can you see it the other way too?  Why believe in anything without full knowledge of the universe? Is that not equally as foolish?

Reply #1621 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:42:14 pm

Offline DooleysMagic

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Quote from: Brendan_Chipp;379556
That is a rediculous statement, and you're only fooling yourself. The fact of the matter is that planes crash and people die as a result. Air travel is safe, and yes, more safe than travelling in a car, but planes still crash, and people still die. Boarding a plane is an act of faith, by placing trust in the airline's staff that they have performed their function properly.




You said in a previous post that ther was no evidence of a hypothetical plane not crashing yet I gave you evidence of the chances of a fatal plane crash. You do realise that plane crews have to be trained before they take passengers don't you?
If I wanted to I'm sure I could ask to see this pilots license or whatever they have and that there would be evidence of this paticular pilot crashing. I mean he has to be alive in the first place if he's even going to board the plane.

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Pity the 21 killed in Indonesia recently didn't have your so called "evidence that the plane will not crash and kill me". :(


Pity they didn't have this faith thing your talking about either.

Reply #1622 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:44:52 pm
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Offline Brendan_Chipp

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Quote from: DooleysMagic;379573
....Soo to stay on topic Brendan where's your evidence of God?

Where did I say I had evidence of God? Show me now, or stop attacking your strawman.
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Yet I have seen planes fly, oil and water emuslify (OMG magic), and many more things that you probably say require faith to believe in things working.

Here's the bottom line - when you step onboard a plane, you place trust/confidence in the airline's staff, that they have performed their duty properly. You do not know that they have, and hundreds of planes have crashed and many thousands of people have died as a result. You play the odds, in that air travel is safer than car travel.
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When it all boils down science has the answers.

Good for you that science has all your answers. I'm a little more open minded, and not willing to close off other possibilities that can't be examined in a lab. :)

Reply #1623 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:48:55 pm

Offline Simon_NZ

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ITS NOT FAITH NOOB!

ITS A FACT THAT WINGS GENERATE LIFT!

ITS NOT FAITH! ITS JUST FACT!

Reply #1624 Posted: April 02, 2007, 10:52:42 pm