so if i take a car for a joy ride but bring it back it doesnt make me a thief? Of course not. the same principle applys for your above statement. it doesnt matter if you dont keep it, its that you took it/burnt it to begin with.

Are you really comparing joy riding to borrowing a DVD?

Let's blow that one out of the water straight away.

Joy-riding = taking the car without the owner's permission = stealing.

Borrowing a DVD from a friend is with the owner's permission = borrowing.

but you just sold on your rights to the intellectual property on that disc so by keeping a copy yourself and from your own definition you are a thief

Not at all - beause as soon as I had sold it I deleted he game in it's entirety. I'm surprised you didn't get that from my post - perhaps I should have worded it differently.

Instead of "I just sold CoD4 - did i burn it??" I should have said "I Just sold CoD4 and made sure I deleted it before the guy played it"

So you have never borrowed a game or DVD to watch of your friends?

I was not talking about online games more single player.
I have spent thousand of dollars buying CDs DVDs and games over the years and I still do like I said in my other post most games I have brought and I am not a thief.

I like to have collection I still buy CDs and DVDs.
I am not saying that piracy is not theft XT the above post was just more asking a question.

Unfortunately I guess this is just part of the modern world with the net and technology when  I was a kid the only way you could get a song without buying it was was to tape it off the radio lol.

Of course I have borrowed music, and DVD's and you'll find there is no law against lending music/software etc. Copying it is another matter altogether.

Certainly more British! :asian:

Of course..!!!!

Xt, you realise that, until the recent changes to the copyright act, format shifting was the same offence as piracy? So while you say that you're honest, according to the laws, which seems to be what you base your moral compass on, you're just as much of a crook

Yes I do realise that - I wonder how many of us knew of that peculiarity prior to it being brought to our notice? However, that law has been changed now hasn't it?

But what about the publishers. Lets accept the fact that most retail outfits will not take returns on PC games due to piracy concerns. Now consider that I've run into several games that will not run on my pc because of their copy protection systems. Games I have legitimately purchased do not run. But downloading cracked copies of these games allows me to run them. So these developers and publishers are selling a product that is defective by design. In their attempt to battle piracy they are actively working to make the end users life more difficult. Is that morally correct?

It's the same argument that can be applied to downloaded music. Why would I purchase music with DRM, knowing that I can do less with it, when I could download higher quality "pirated" material for free. There's been at least two major stories now about online music providers (iirc sony and microsoft) turning off DRM authentication servers, rendering all the music bought by people using those services absolutely worthless. That's what happens when music, or games, stop being a product and become a service.

Now for some games and music, this makes sense. MMORPG's are better classified as a service, as they are providing live updates and patches. But when was the last time that an extra track was added to an album you bought online? When was the last time the developer of a single player game added additional content after launch for free?

In my eyes, it comes down to these companies forgetting that people play games. For example, the original Red Alert allowed you to lend the second game disc to a friend, so you could play against them online without them buying a copy. That's a fucking genius idea, and something that customers totally responded to because it was a good thing. There was no downside to that plan for the customer.

Compare that to Blizzard suing people for selling WoW characters under the premise of intellectual property laws. They're essentially saying "because we don't make money from second hand products, it should be illegal to sell them". That's what intellectual property laws are used for Xt, not for the protection of the poor game publishers, but for the exploitation of the customers.

There's a simple solution really - buy your games from Ghost, and if you don't like them take them back. Easy.

I do understand what you're saying and agree to a point. Developers should do more for gamers - EA are a classic, so many of their games seem unfinished. However, have you ever thought that a lot of the bus that we find can't be found until the game is released to a wider audience? I'm not saying that's right, just a thought.

Also, your exact attitude perpetuates the need for anti-piracy.

Have you ever thought that without the proliferation of torrent sites, muscis download sites and the like, there would be no need for those measures? Now in a perfect world that would be the case, however we're not in a perfect world and there are people who see nothing wrong with not paying for something they obviously think is a good product.

Personally, I like games like rFactor where the code is open to other developers to add more mods and tracks all free of charge - all we pay is the $60 odd USD to d/l the game then we get hundreds and hundreds of free mods and tracks - it's great and makes people want to play the game. If more developers were like that then most of us would be a lot happier.

I don't think there will ever be a perfect solution simply because just like with hacking, the pirates are always one step ahead of the developers and I for one think that's a shame.

I know I would want to be paid for work I do - especailly if what I did brought fun to millions of people.

Ok

So I buy a game I play it for 3 months one of my mates wants to play it so i take it to his house and install it now we both have it did he steal that game?

So same thing but this time my friend lives 300km away so I upload the game that I paid for onto a site so he can download it and play it is that theft?

In effect yes it is.

Especially if you're both gonna play online, but either way it's tantamount to theft in my eyes.

Like I said above, it's no wonder that developers are spending more and more on ways to prevent it - and that we may find less and less being developed for the PC because it's so rife - if it's harder to "Steal" a PS3 or Xbox game in that way of course they are giong to concentrate their efforts to those formats.

In effect you people who do "steal" games in this way are contributin to PC gaming's downfall.

And then you all cry about having to have other software on your computers because of poeple stealing the games..!!!

i suppose you also have a problem with someone who buys a game, burns it onto a disk as a back up or just to keep after selling it on?

Burning it to disc because they are going to on sell it??

LOL - what do you tihnk of that?

Out it this way - I just sold CoD4 - did I burn a copy?

I have no issues with someone doing it to have as backup - just as I used to tape my albums to play in the car, but not to steal it from someone which is in effect what is happening.

Just my opinion, others can have theirs, just as in any opinion - I suppose I am just more honest than a lot of poeple on these forums.

Electronic intellectual property is NOT subject to the same rules or law as physical property.

Yes it is.

The same rights and priveledges of the developer/owner exist. Why do you think that there are copyright protection on any digital format?

Not being emotional, just stating facts.

If you burn a dvd, d/l music/games/other stuff it's theft. No other word for it as far as I know.

I have a fairly simple rule:

If Im still playing it ten years later and enjoying it just as much as when I first played it, I buy it.

Very few games can pass this stringent test.

That's just BS.

Do you say the same about a car? Or your clothes or any other product out there?

No you don't.

If you d/l anything that isn't available free of charge you're a thief. End of.

[video]FquMEmrm4Fk[/video]

Not a joke, but a great newspaper headline.

A couple of years back, Inverness Caledonian Thistle played celtic in the Scottish Cup - "Callie" as they are known were vack then a club from the lower leagues in Scotland and managed to pull off a huge upset by beating Celtic.

One of the Scottish papers covering the game came up with this:

"Super Cally Go Balistic Celtic Are Atrocious"  :rnr:

Always makes me laugh.

Daz Crawford.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0186743/

He's the right height 6' 4.5", former UK gladiator, ex-services. Slightly younger than reacher, but only 8 years difference.

Look familiar ?

To my mind Reacher isn't black

I was agreeing with you.

That's ok then.

'Cos I was right

You probably thought Damon Hill was the man.

HAha - he won a Wrld Title didn't he?

ALthough almost by default after Ayrton was killed. WIlliams had by far the best car then - just ask Mansell, Prost, Villeneuve and Hill.

Less bitching, more interesting f1 talk thanks.

+1

Been trying to get them to talk about F1, but to no avail.

Seems they are more interested in flaming and trolliing than the racing.

Shame no admins see fit to do the decent thing.

Only an hour and a half to the race - looking forward to it, Sean is a great track - hard on tyres and brakes as well.

Even poorer show by the FIA.

1. Barichello dq'ed to give Raikonnen a point even though the offence warranted a stop and go at best.

2. Nothing done about Raikonnen's dodgy retirement - allowing him to change his engine without a grid penalty.

3. Dropping the Maclarens five places on the grid - even though other teams weren't given a penalty for the same offence.

Why don't they just give Ferrari the title now? The most hollow of victory's is getting hollower by the day.

Exactly.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who can see the inequality of this. I thought that all the drivers were going to be brought in an talked to, and was shocked to read about this on BBC.co.nz this morning.

I just hope the McLarens can get back into it quickly - maybe a couple of safety cars, or some weather to help them.