Topic: Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: AŠidBľrn;866019
Thats quite the opposite. You poke fun at the person because they are of another religion. Isn't that just what you were doing 2 posts back.  Dont forget the wonders of how the universe started.



Also..Isn't atheism a Religion as well? Its having faith in the "fact" that god doesn't exist.

Religion != belief without proof.

Reply #6225 Posted: January 10, 2009, 02:52:16 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline Dr Woomanchu

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Quote from: AŠidBľrn;866019


Also..Isn't atheism a Religion as well? Its having faith in the "fact" that god doesn't exist.


Is not using heroin a drug addiction?

Reply #6226 Posted: January 10, 2009, 08:11:15 am

Blackwatch Off Topic - Abandon hope all ye who enter here

Offline UppityDuck

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;865981
Not necessarily.

I know where you're going with this, but since all of those facts were true of Jesus as well, a guess of 'Jesus' would be fairly accurate, would it not? :asian:

 No it would not because it shows that the 'Jesus myth' was a copycat affair.
It's an assumption to call them facts.

It may be Mithra...but I'm going with Enlil or Enki  from Sumerian lore...maybe?


Quote from: A©idBµrn;866019
Dont forget the wonders of how the universe started

Please, do tell....you realise you could become a very rich man/woman/transgender if you are onto something solid!!!

Reply #6227 Posted: January 10, 2009, 08:15:47 am
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: UppityDuck;866041
No it would not because it shows that the 'Jesus myth' was a copycat affair.
It's an assumption to call them facts.

It may be Mithra...but I'm going with Enlil or Enki  from Sumerian lore...maybe

So we're now assuming that Enil, Enki and Mithra are known fact, and Jesus is myth?

Its awesome how your myths are fine, but my "myths" aren't :P

Reply #6228 Posted: January 10, 2009, 09:21:59 am

Offline UppityDuck

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;866055
So we're now assuming that Enil, Enki and Mithra are known fact, and Jesus is myth?

Its awesome how your myths are fine, but my "myths" aren't :P


No, I'm not taking that road, they are, in my opinion, myths as well. The purpose was to illustrate that the Jesus myth is an appropriation of an older myth.

Reply #6229 Posted: January 10, 2009, 09:34:45 am
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Oh. So the point was to show something thats really been beaten into the ground in this thread. My apologies. My point was merely that those points were all true of "Jesus" (whether you believe it or not) so if you guessed Jesus, you'd actually be right.


OK, now that I got it sorted, this is fun!
Along a similar vein as Killers post:

Which country am I?

- I have green grass everywhere.
- I have glaciers.
- I have an active volcano near a lake.
- My capital city is not my biggest city.
- I am the home of a world-famous sports team.
- I had a female prime minister until recently.
- I'm famous for native culture.
- I have a reputation as being "green".

If you guess New Zealand, you're wrong.

Reply #6230 Posted: January 10, 2009, 09:40:04 am

Offline Arnifix

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;866055
So we're now assuming that Enil, Enki and Mithra are known fact, and Jesus is myth?

Its awesome how your myths are fine, but my "myths" aren't :P

Say U2 release a single called "A Little Less Conversation". Lots of people love it and say it is the best thing since Bono last vomited. Other people point out that, hang on, Elvis Presley wrote that song. Ok, the U2 version has U2's xtreme sound, but isn't it basically the same song?

Then the U2 fans claim that the U2 cover is in fact the REAL song, and Elvis' was just... Well, they don't tend to get to that bit.

The point is that Duck isn't digging on your myths specifically. I presume he is pointing out that you are selectively choosing which myth you want to believe. You can do that if you like, but doesn't it jar a little to have significant evidence that thousands of years before Christ fought the robot dinolords there were other "dieties" doing almost the exact same thing? Could it not be said that Christianity is simply the "in thing" in religions at the moment, since what is being worshipped is almost identical.

Consider this. If a study was conducted, listing all the attributes that the aforementioned gods had in common on a table, and participants were then asked to pick which religion to follow by selecting a column numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, it would be safe to assume that each number would recieve approximately 25% of the "votes".

But were the columns renamed to Mithra, Christ, etc, would people not be more likely to pick Christ? Despite the gods having identical spheres of influence, people would pick something that they know over the unknown, right? I'd certainly expect to see more people choose Christ.

There are obvious arguments around this thinking, the most obvious being "they were all representatives of one god, just by different names", but still. If I were god, I'd be pissed if you got my sons name wrong. Smite you suckas.

EDIT: In this post I demonstrate that I cannot read the mind of a duck.

Reply #6231 Posted: January 10, 2009, 09:41:22 am

Let us retract the foreskin of ignorance and apply the wirebrush of enlightenment.

Offline KiLL3r

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I am Horus the Egyptian Sun God who lived a thousand years or so before jesus was born.

i could also be Krishna, Mithra, Buddha all of whom had most of the same supposed miracles happen to them that jesus did.

Jesus is nothing more than a copy and paste of the dietys prior to his birth.

Reply #6232 Posted: January 10, 2009, 09:52:35 am


Offline UppityDuck

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Quote from: Arnifix;866060


EDIT: In this post I demonstrate that I cannot read the mind of a duck.



Ha ha....but your presumption was bang on!


...ooooh, Horus, forgot about him~!



This is interesting:

Caesar's Messiah

Quote
Our understanding of Jewish and Christian history has changed dramatically with the publication of Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill (Ulysses Press), which had previously been privately published under the title The Roman Origins of Christianity. According to Atwill, the Gospels are not accounts of the ministry of a historical Jewish Jesus compiled by his followers sixty years after his death. They are texts deliberately created to trick Messianic Jews into worshipping the Roman Emperor 'in disguise'. The essence of Atwill's discovery is that the majority of the key events in the life of Jesus are in fact satirical: each is an elegant literary play on a military battle in which the Jewish armies had been defeated by the Romans. This is an extraordinary claim-but supported by all the necessary evidence.


Quote
Professor Robert Eisenman of California State University describes Atwill's research as rendering contemporary Christian scholarship so challenged that it is now "looking into the abyss". It is worth noting, in this regard, that the general scholarly consensus that there was a historical, Jewish Jesus is itself largely a recent historical idea, traceable to Abraham Geiger in the 1860's. He persuaded scholars that the Gospels were an account of a historical Jewish Jesus, a typical Pharisee of his day. Since then this view, and with it the notion of Christianity as a development of Judaism, has become the dominant paradigm in Christianity. However, as the new discoveries in Caesar's Messiah make clear, this is not just misleading, but a dangerous concession to a false system of belief. The Romans created this new religion deliberately to humiliate the Jews and to keep them in submission. For contemporary Jewish scholars to collude with this Roman literary invention, and to even pretend that this fictional character had historic reality, is the height of irony.

In the past, evidence had been put forward to suggest that the NT gospels are literary accounts containing mythological accretions. However, Christians have been able to dismiss that evidence on the grounds that underneath it all there 'must' be a Historical Jesus. Atwill's discovery changes all that. There was no historical Jesus and the Gospels were Roman imitations of Jewish sacred texts created by the Flavian Emperors as ironical 'good news' to deceive the Jews. It is one thing for Christians to use works of literature as their sacred documents. It is quite another for them to continue using what have now been discovered to be deliberate Roman fakes about a non existent Messiah.

Reply #6233 Posted: January 10, 2009, 09:55:55 am
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline Tiwaking!

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Quote from: AŠidBľrn;866019
Also..Isn't atheism a Religion as well? Its having faith in the "fact" that god doesn't exist.

Quote from: Dr_Woohoo;866037
Is not using heroin a drug addiction?

Is BALD a hair colour?

Reply #6234 Posted: January 10, 2009, 11:12:51 am
I am now banned from GetSome

Offline Apostrophe Spacemonkey

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Quote from: UppityDuck;865904
Good, it wasn't an exhaustive list by any means!:asian:

So what influence did the Egyptians have in writing the Bible?

The Egyptians chased Moses through the red sea, they featured heavily in the book of Exodus.

Reply #6235 Posted: January 10, 2009, 01:05:39 pm

Offline UppityDuck

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Yes, and Moses was also a Pharaoh...so during the days in Egypt it is possible they came into contact with the Egyptian numerical system...I can see that...however, numerology is another leap that I can't make!

Reply #6236 Posted: January 10, 2009, 01:11:15 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline Bell

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Ok I have a serious question for Fleastyler or anyone else who belongs to a specific religion. (assuming you do flea)
This isn't an attempt to mock your beliefs or anything this is just something I wish to understand.

I can understand why people believe there maybe some sort of higher power or being.
What I don't understand is how you can be so sure it must exist and that you know what it is.
How do you look at a specific religion and decide "Yes I believe this one is correct and all others are wrong".
How do you follow an organised religion?

Alot of the people who talk on forums in threads like this are generally much more informed and are aware of other religious views, practises and origins than others.
So where does this faith come from and by that I mean the faith that you have picked the right religion, and that the reason you believe in it has not been influenced by others, and you have choosen it out of your own free will.

Personally I believe that the majority of current day Christians would be muslims if they had been born in the middle east.
I think cultural and family pressures play the largest part in religious choice.

If anyone here is a convert to another religion having been brought up in a religion of another type I would be even more interested to hear those views.
How did you know with certainty that the faith that your family and national culture had in another religion was wrong.

Also a response from someone like a Catholic who that is dead certain prodasent's are wrong would be great.

Reply #6237 Posted: January 10, 2009, 10:21:06 pm

Offline nick247

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see i can understand that. You believe in a higher power, you realise that all religions are essentially the same (within reason) so "convenience" will play a large part in the decision.

You still base the decision on things like particular beliefs (eg you dont care that the local satanist cult is next door cos sacrifice just isnt your thing) but an important part is where are my friends and family going and how similar will the people be (so you might avoid going muslim in NZ, opting for something more comfortable) and how far will i have to travel to get my sacrifice on.

Is this the case? How important are the convenience factors?

Reply #6238 Posted: January 10, 2009, 10:36:44 pm

Offline UppityDuck

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http://godisimaginary.com/

Just found this site. I like it a lot (of course)


Quote
It is easy to prove to yourself that God is imaginary. The evidence is all around you. Here are 50 simple proofs:
Try praying

Statistically analyze prayer

Look at all historical gods

Think about science

Read the Bible

Ponder God's plan

Understand religious delusion

Think about Near Death Experiences

Understand ambiguity

Watch the offering plate

Notice that there is no scientific evidence

See the magic

Take a look at slavery

Examine Jesus' miracles

Examine Jesus' resurrection

Contemplate the contradictions

Think about Leprechauns

Imagine heaven

Notice that you ignore Jesus

Notice your church

Understand Jesus' core message

Count all the people God wants to murder

Listen to the Doxology

Ask why religion causes so many problems

Understand evolution and abiogenesis

Notice that the Bible's author is not "all-knowing"

Think about life after death

Notice how many gods you reject

Think about communion

Examine God's sexism

Understand that religion is superstition

Talk to a theologian

Contemplate the crucifixion

Examine your health insurance policy

Notice Jesus' myopia

Realize that God is impossible

Think about DNA

Contemplate the divorce rate among Christians

Realize that Jesus was a jerk

Understand Christian motivations

Flip a coin

Listen when "God talks"

Realize that a "hidden God" is impossible

Think about a Christian housewife

Consider Noah's Ark

Ponder Pascal's Wager

Contemplate Creation

Compare prayer to a lucky horseshoe

Look at who speaks for God

Ask Jesus to appear


Each of these is covered in the site. You can click on each of them for more information.

Well worth it! :rnr:


Jesus made me puke

Unreasonable Faith. A former Christian's thoughts on Faith, Science and Scepticism

Reply #6239 Posted: January 11, 2009, 11:52:42 am
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline swindle

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Continual logic flipping. Like flipping a coin hopping it will land with both sides up.

Don't get me wrong though, interesting thread.

Reply #6240 Posted: January 11, 2009, 11:56:28 am
If we hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes should fall like a house of cards. Checkmate.

Offline Zhija

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Quote from: Bell;866311
stuff


I said before that I was a very unorthodox Catholic, and my beliefs differ greatly, but mostly because I have friends of a variety of faiths. One of my best friends is a Muslim and we used to constantly debate religion, and what came from this is that I found that parts of both our religion were correct in some ways and incorrect in others.

IMO religion is a giant puzzle, and all of them are interlinked.

I think its Buddhists that think that if you lead a perfect life then you are a God. Jesus supposedly led such a life and Christians accept him as God.

Muslims believe Jesus was a great prophet but not the Son of God, but they have many other teachings that coincide with Christian teachings.

It also talks about well, the devil I think, coming to earth and pretending to be good, and becomes the president of the world per say, and everyone loves him but he is actually misleading them, which says you can't always trust the dude with the suit shaking your hand with the lottery grant or whatever you may be doing.

I take a bit from each religion in my faith, but I admit I do lean towards Catholicism which is why I said I was "Catholic", but the reason I believe in a God so strongly is because of my own experiences as well as those of others around me.

I wont bore you with any examples because I'm sure none of you want to hear about another revelation.
This coming from someone who speaks on nobodies behalf but my own, I think that each religion is correct in worshiping the "One true God" but the way they do it doesn't matter.

If you were an almighty creator don't you think you would get a bit bored with every single person doing the exact same thing to worship you?
Everyone either fearing/respecting you so much they stay away, or having everyone treat you like a best friend or something like it? Kind of like you wouldn't want to be eating the same food every day for the rest of your life I guess.

That's just my personal view though.

Sorry for walloftext. I could have added more if I wanted though :P

Reply #6241 Posted: January 11, 2009, 05:49:04 pm

Offline Bell

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Thanks for the reply.
So you believe any religion that teaches people to believe that the other religions are wrong/bad are not the kind of religions god would want?
Do you believe god would allow us to worship him however we want and we will still go to heaven?

Reply #6242 Posted: January 11, 2009, 06:09:25 pm

Offline Zhija

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No and yes.

Any religion that cannot keep its members will cease to be, as those who choose to believe will simply flock to the "Easiest" religion. But on a side note I also believe it is wrong to keep people from leaving a religion if they feel that it is not the correct one for them (There are many Catholics I know who fled the middle east for fear of their families and their own lives after converting from Islam), but I must also add that my Muslim friend converted to Islam from Catholicism.

I also believe that God would let anyone in Heaven who is compatible... I mean...

I had a discussion with a couple about gaining entry into heaven, and even though religions say that the only way to heaven is through them, I believe that anyone who is a good person will go to heaven, no matter what their faith. I also believe there are certain religious people who won't go to heaven, even some of those ordained who will not "make the cut".
Well I shouldn't refer to some of these people as religious. A lot of people use religion as a mask to hide behind, pretending that they believe in a higher power and are good people when they really just show up to church on a Sunday and then go off back to disrespecting life all around them.

Tldr for that last paragraph; If your nonreligious but good then I believe you will go to heaven, if your religious but.... well... evil(?) then you won't.

I don't believe in the cliche "heaven", but definitely an afterlife of some form, and that the decisions you make in life affect it in some way.

Reply #6243 Posted: January 11, 2009, 06:43:13 pm

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Bell, I'll try my best ...
Remember, all responses are merely my own understanding/perspective, and I retain full rights to be completely wrong :D

Quote from: Bell;866311
I can understand why people believe there maybe some sort of higher power or being.
What I don't understand is how you can be so sure it must exist and that you know what it is.
How do you look at a specific religion and decide "Yes I believe this one is correct and all others are wrong".

For me, I think I just kind of 'perceived' that God was real - you hear people talk all the time about a 'spiritual awakening' or whatever, and I genuinely believe that is what happened to me.

In the beginning, I just kind of felt my way around and decided that Christianity - the kind of personal faith, no-set-rules practice that resonates best with me - was the one that I would go after. I picked the church I went to based on 2 factors: 1) my parents went there, 2) in my own quiet time of reflection, I genuinely felt that they were on to something (note: my parents have since left the church to attend a different one, but I still go; we now disagree on many facets of the Christian faith, but in a healthy, helping-each-other-figure-it-out kind of way)

At the end of the day, with so many different religions and beliefs in play, someone is going to be wrong, and I'm fully prepared for that. I don't think I have all the answers, but I'd like to think I at least have an answer, and I feel a need within myself to follow up on that and see where it takes me.

Quote from: Bell;866311
How do you follow an organised religion?

I don't.

I've talked about this in the thread before; I don't believe generic Christian faith to be an organised religion in the same sense that Catholicism or Protestantism is an organised religion. There are support structures in place to help churches connect and help each other, but there are relatively few teachings or "rules" that govern such groups.

I feel within myself that I am free to pursue any aspects of my own faith that I want to pursue, and learn whatever I want to learn, including things that don't necessarily lineup with the majority of people at my church - for example, I am intrigued by the idea of Universalism, which is a far from common belief, and also pretty much subscribe to the eschatological idea of Preterism (which holds that all prophetic events concerning the "End Times" have already happened). I'm free to pursue these ideas and beliefs, so its not organised in that sense.

As far as the church organisation - that only exists for practical reasons. For example, we put on a free Christmas Day feast - its just easier to work together. We work together to put a roof over the congregations head, to do something positive in our community (charity work, etc), to have a band play at services, to bring in guest speakers from around the world, etc etc. Try doing some of that stuff without an organisation of some kind.

Quote from: Bell;866311
So where does this faith come from and by that I mean the faith that you have picked the right religion, and that the reason you believe in it has not been influenced by others, and you have choosen it out of your own free will.

As I say, I don't know that I have picked the right religion at all - I'm fully prepared to be wrong. That said, my initial reason for attending my church (my parents) may have represented an outside influence, but my own growth and maturity since has led me to more closely embrace the idea of freedom-of-choice and reject the ideas of "brain-washing" and so on. My spiritual "path" is of my own choosing, I 100% believe that.

(On a more private note, this thread, and the contributions of those in it, has continually led me to investigate my own beliefs more closely and scrutinise exactly what I believe and why. Thanks guys :))

Quote from: Bell;866311
Personally I believe that the majority of current day Christians would be muslims if they had been born in the middle east.
I think cultural and family pressures play the largest part in religious choice.

It's possible.

The big difference between here and there, of course: in New Zealand, you can be a Muslim for all anyone cares, while in Muslim countries you can be a Christian ... if you either move to another country or die.

Quote from: Bell;866311
If anyone here is a convert to another religion having been brought up in a religion of another type I would be even more interested to hear those views.
How did you know with certainty that the faith that your family and national culture had in another religion was wrong.

Technically I converted from Catholicism to a more generic form of Christian faith, however I was young - I left the Catholic church at 13 years old (or rather, told mum I just wasn't going anymore) - I don't remember too much about it, other than it just seemed wrong. I started going to the Christian church where I am now at the age of 22. It just feels right; thats the only real guide I have.

Any questions, feel absolutely free to send them through :)

Reply #6244 Posted: January 11, 2009, 11:02:58 pm

Offline UppityDuck

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Quote from: ThaFleastyler;866938


The big difference between here and there, of course: in New Zealand, you can be a Muslim for all anyone cares, while in Muslim countries you can be a Christian ... if you either move to another country or die.



Firstly, thanks for sharing, and it's interesting to hear perspectives such as the two above.

However, Flea, I must take issue with this, as it is a bit simplistic. There are many instances of Christians and Muslims etc living together peacefully, in primarily 'Muslim' countries. Using an article with an instance from a warzone is  skewing the results...and there are probably instances of Christians doing a similar thing (think hardcore fundamentalists...I wouldn't be surprised!)


....but yeah, thanks guys for sharing...of course I can't comment on the personal sides of these posts as they are yours, and I may well be wrong too! :heheh:

Reply #6245 Posted: January 12, 2009, 07:35:33 am
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline Bell

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Good post cheers flea, exactly what I was looking for.

Reply #6246 Posted: January 12, 2009, 09:10:06 am

Offline ThaFleastyler

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Quote from: UppityDuck;867018
There are many instances of Christians and Muslims etc living together peacefully, in primarily 'Muslim' countries. Using an article with an instance from a warzone is  skewing the results...and there are probably instances of Christians doing a similar thing (think hardcore fundamentalists...I wouldn't be surprised!)

This is a fair statement - I can tend to overstate things a little :)

Though I think its fair to say that here in New Zealand we don't really grasp the seriousness of religious fundamentalism, from any religious group. There are fundamentalists in any group and their actions always seem over-the-top and almost criminally unfair, whether it be a Hamas leader moving to America, an ex-scientologist being forced apart from his family, or a gay Christian being stopped from attending a church.

If you ask me, fundamentalism is fine - but when one persons set of beliefs causes them to act negatively towards another person who doesn't share those beliefs, thats the real problem. (For myself, I'm as much against Christian fundamentalism that negatively affects non-believers as I am against any other groups' fundamentalist beliefs. Each to their own, I say.)

Reply #6247 Posted: January 12, 2009, 10:16:50 am

Offline UppityDuck

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I've just got this book: God is Not Great. How Religion Poisons Everything
by Christopher Hitchins.

This from the Dust Jacket:
Quote
In God is Not Great, Hitchins tweezes through the major religious texts with forensic shrewdness. With chapters entitled 'Religion Kills' and 'Is Religion Child Abuse?' he fearlessly argues for a secular life based on science and reason, tarring religion as man-made 'wish-thinking'. He documents the ways in which religion is a cause of dangerous sexual repression and a distortion of our origins in the cosmos; in Hitchens' opinion, hell is replaced by the Hubble telescope's view of the universe, and Moses and the burning bush give way to the double helix. Principally, Hitchens argues that the concept of an omniscient God has profoundly damaged humanity, and proposes that the world might be a great deal better off without Him.


Should be an interesting read!

Reply #6248 Posted: January 22, 2009, 12:45:03 pm
A mere friend will agree with you, but a real friend will argue.

Russian Proverb

Offline ThaFleastyler

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While I haven't read this particular book, I have read some Hitchins' work, particularly online - he's a very cool guy, so should be a good read. Keen to hear what you think, when done.

Reply #6249 Posted: January 22, 2009, 12:57:43 pm