Religion. The evolution, creation and everything in between megathread

[ThaFleastyler]

Flea - Look at the destiny church - they demand 10% of your income (some figure anyway) which is greedy, and how many lawyers or accountants go?

Different churches have different beliefs, and tithing (ie giving 10% of your income) is one of theirs. Note that its 10% no matter what your income, not "10% or a minimum fee of $10,000" - if you earn $10 a week, you give $1. IMO a greedy, money-centred church would be Scientology, which requires payment to simply learn more about their religion.

In fact, 10% isn't really even greedy, since its a biblical principle. I am not going to get into it here, but a simple verse like Malachi 3:10 (which says something along the lines of "bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this and see if I will not open the windows of heaven on you") seems supportive of a tithing stance, as well as promising prosperity in return for generosity. Not only that, but getting into a practice of giving freely to anything, whether it be a church, a charity or whatever, encourages a lifestyle centred on generosity, which is one of the cornerstones of any great community.

I can't comment on Destiny Church, since I've never been, but not all churches are as forceful on their giving policy (my church discusses it, but not in a "give-or-else" way). Similarly, I couldn't tell you how many lawyers or accountants go to Destiny Church, since they don't release that information. However, I can say that in my experience, people who are rich and "have it all" don't have a direct desire to seek God - they simply replace him with this years Holden and a new briefcase. Doesn't mean they need Him any less though. In my own life, I think I always felt like God was real, but for most of my life I replaced him with alcohol, sex and drugs - good replacements, but ultimately empty of purpose.

This is OT now. /end

[true]

the fact the worlds population is 6 BILLION people and that it isn't happening suggests its not rare, it simply doesn't happen. the chances of it occuring when there were several times less people like 0BC are exponentially less.

Alot of you are confusing the issue.

Back in the day (lol) spirituality was much more dominant in the governing and social structure of most of the country's of the world, and people thought differently than they do now. Kings and Queens and the rulers of Nations and Empires relyed on spiritual guidance and belief to help with many facits of ruling.

How can you say there should be 'Jesus type' people walking around everywhere now that there are 6 BILLION humans on this Earth, when people like you (you know who you are) or say the Govening bodies of the 'west', wouldnt recognise these 'types' anyway? But even then, the thing is, Jesus' persona has been so acutely altered that we only have a biased/bastardised description of who Jesus really was.

The short of it is (maybe) - Jesus was just a man, who was a great scholar and alchemist, and a very prophetic human. He walked the Earth - like many of the figure heads of other 'religions' - and spread the word of love, compassion and forbearance, which he may have claimed was sent though him by a divine power. Later, Emperor Constantine/Augustus, seeing the effect that the words and acts of Jesus (and the Essenes) where having, took the original Christianity and made it his own and then hunted down the original Christians and anybody who had any affiliation with them, and systematically wiped them out. Christianity would later come to be known as the official religion of Rome with the Bible at the helm.

Im not a Christian but I have found that this period in time, to the current days, has some of the most crazy and amazing events in our 'known' history. You who think that science is this new thing that explains our world perfectly? The Aztecs, Sumerians, Atlantians, Egyptians, The Essenes, Mayans, Toltecs, Chinese, Celts, to name a few, all practiced science and spirituality together, and many of the sciences practiced were so advanced and far surpass what we know/are feed today.

Balance is a key

gl hf

[true]

From my experience many poor people are religious.

They need help, and think they will get it from above.

Ignorance never ceases to amaze me.

Many rich people are christian, many working class people are christian, many of many different types of people are christian. Many people are christian because they need answers, they need help, they need comfort and solitude etc etc.

I see wealthy people in poor countries preaching to poor people becuase they have no more hope left and so they turn to one of the only options they feel they have left, now that there cultures have been destroyed, their friends and families murdered, there homes excuvated to make way for industry, their land and resources raped, their ways of living and teaching have been replaced by 'western standards, and their spirits have been broken though watching the promises of rich white men (readjustment and restructuring) go unfulfilled.

[dirtyape]

the fact the worlds population is 6 BILLION people and that it isn't happening suggests its not rare, it simply doesn't happen. the chances of it occuring when there were several times less people like 0BC are exponentially less.

Do not confuse absence of proof with proof of absence.

We simply cannot know if these events are occurring.

[Wandarah]

I hear Sharks go on land at night and sodomise Gorillas - and thats why we have the National Party.

Prove me wrong.

[Tiwaking!]

GO PHIL COLLINS!!!

Second best anti-evangelist song ever made
[video]ZeZireaUCK4[/video]

NNo it isn't, there are two parts of the bible, the old testament, and the new testament, the new testament is the only part about Jesus.

O RLY???

You should try arguing this idea with someone who knows and believes that the Old Testament provides evidence for Jesus to be the prophesied messiah.

I'm satisfied that the bible has been adeqautely disproven. We can now disprove some of the other religions. Time to join some muslim forums...

and i better find a muslim wiki...

Dont bother with the Muslim's, pick on Buddhists!

Non-Orthodox Buddhists are the worse kind of scumbag

The short of it is (maybe) - Jesus was just a man

Myself and ALL of the Eastern Orthodox based religions disagree with you

Many rich people are christian, many working class people are christian, many of many different types of people are christian. Many people are christian because they need answers, they need help, they need comfort and solitude etc etc.

Actually religion is fairly easy to explain.

1. A Civilisation becomes rich and prosperous, this leads to an increasing division of labour related to services(and less to primary) one of which deals with moral problems not related to Law or Laws. A caste relating to divine issues arises to help alleviate the moral stress. Folklore becomes creation myth becomes current reality.
2. Rich moral people instigate social services by creating binding religious laws relating to helping others.
3. Political and Religious tension occurs. This usually ends with either the marrige or annihilation of both sides

[Zarathrustra]

Ok, so whats the scientific theory behing this virgin birth thing? Mutant egg resulting in a clone of the mother or what?  Doesn't that mean Jesus should have been a chick?

[BerG]

Ignorance never ceases to amaze me.
.

It's not ignorance. Of course I know rich people are christian aswell ffs. Have you been reading the thread? Did you not see me laughing at someones suggestions that christians must be criminals because only poor nations are religious on the last page? No, fuck off. You are the ignorant one.

As I said, In my experience I have known a few very poor religious families who cling to the hope that things will improve because God is looking after them. Is that a statement that only poor people are religious? No, idiot.

After all the crap that had happened in their lives I cant believe they could still think someone was looking after them, but they needed it for hope.

[private_hell]

what is teh best anti-evangelist song ever made?

[Wandarah]

Actually religion is fairly easy to explain.

1. A Civilisation becomes rich and prosperous, this leads to an increasing division of labour related to services(and less to primary) one of which deals with moral problems not related to Law or Laws. A caste relating to divine issues arises to help alleviate the moral stress. Folklore becomes creation myth becomes current reality.
2. Rich moral people instigate social services by creating binding religious laws relating to helping others.
3. Political and Religious tension occurs. This usually ends with either the marrige or annihilation of both sides

Nah, I wouldnt explain it like that. Well, you seem to be more explaining the birth of an organised religious doctrine complete with priests, shaman, etc. Rather than religion itself, innit.

[krasher]

LOL@Christians are poor.
LOL@Christians are rich.
LOL@Reliegeon is the cause of all war.
LOL@MRBENIS.

I think the problem might be that Christians are people - just people with different beliefs. MRBENIS is a person. Religious people are people. People are rich, people are poor, people cause war. There is actually a co-relation with +ve mental health and Christians (I need to find the research ref - but it is proper research not just wiki stuff), but I am not sure about the crazy thing. Seems to be round the other way - although I realize that if I say that I talk to God I sound crazy.

Would be interesting to hear about some other religions but I don't think this is a particularly welcoming place for people to speak freely about their beliefs so you may as well continue to speak ignorantly about them.

For me, I know there is a God. I have experienced and seen things that remove any doubt in my mind that there is something more out there than just what we can see. I can't prove it. But you can't disprove it. I don't doubt that some of the way I understand God is wrong so I am not interested in arguments about the Bible. Does this make me religious or just a believer? Does it make me crazy? Does it make me rich..............

[Tiwaking!]

what is teh best anti-evangelist song ever made?

"Dumb all over" by Frank Zappa

Nah, I wouldnt explain it like that. Well, you seem to be more explaining the birth of an organised religious doctrine complete with priests, shaman, etc. Rather than religion itself, innit.

True. I just described the rise of the religion in Egypt. But does it really matter what the religion says? All it has to say is "Feel good when you do good. Feel bad when you do bad. It all comes from divine entity who knows absolute morality and you should strive to be like/worship that. Now give me your money or I send you to hell"

Cant much argue with that

[TofuEater]

what is teh best anti-evangelist song ever made?

Walk like an Egyptian - The Bangles

[Apostrophe Spacemonkey]

your getting people confused with snails, i dont think the "virgin" mary was a snail

Up until last year parthenogenesis was thought to be impossible in Komodo Dragons
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061220-virgin-dragons.html?source=rss

Turns out it is possible.

Ok, so whats the scientific theory behing this virgin birth thing? Mutant egg resulting in a clone of the mother or what?  Doesn't that mean Jesus should have been a chick?

If Mary had Turner's mosaic, (which means she had some XXY cells) or some other form of aneuploidy, then it could be possible for a male to be born through parthenogenesis.

However that would require two very rare things to happen to the same person, so the chance of that happing is very very small.

Still not impossible though.

[ThaFleastyler]

SM can you link to a page, other than religious, that says its possible.

All I can find on Google is a bunch of crap about jesus.

Alright, to partially answer the question BerG is posing here:
Rob Bell, pastor of Mars Hill Church, in Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA, and the author of Velvet Elvis: Repainting the Christian Faith, speaks at length about the ability of Christians to question their own faith, coming to the conclusion that questioning things should be a natural part of faith in anything. The quote from the book relevant to BerG's question (bold mine):

What if tomorrow someone digs up definitive proof that Jesus had a real, earthly, biological father named Larry, and archaeologists find Larry's tomb and do DNA samples and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the virgin birth was really just a bit of mythologizing the Gospel writers threw in to appeal to the followers of the Mithra and Dionysian religious cults that were hugely popular at the time of Jesus, whose gods had virgin births? But what if as you study the origin of the word virgin, you discover that the word virgin in the gospel of Matthew actually comes from the book of Isaiah, and then you find out that in the Hebrew language at that time, the word virgin could mean several things. And what if you discover that in the first century being "born of a virgin" also referred to a child whose mother became pregnant the first time she had intercourse?

[cobra]

If Mary had Turner's mosaic, (which means she had some XXY cells) or some other form of aneuploidy, then it could be possible for a male to be born through parthenogenesis.

So if Mary was a semi retarded, sterile man it might have been possible? I will give you this – the virgin birth happened but jesus’s mom was a man

(+ I don’t think you will go to heaven, I know if I was jesus and someone was disrespecting my mom like that I wouldn’t let you in)

ps xxy chromosomes rather than cells

[ThaFleastyler]

(+ I don’t think you will go to heaven, I know if I was jesus and someone was disrespecting my mom like that I wouldn’t let you in)

Remember Jesus was God made man, so you're actually saying you wouldn't let in someone who was trying to prove you were telling the truth when you said your mum was a virgin when she gave birth.

[GhostOfGallipoli]

http://homophobelol.ytmnd.com/

[Zarathrustra]

Up until last year parthenogenesis was thought to be impossible in Komodo Dragons
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/12/061220-virgin-dragons.html?source=rss

Turns out it is possible.



If Mary had Turner's mosaic, (which means she had some XXY cells) or some other form of aneuploidy, then it could be possible for a male to be born through parthenogenesis.

However that would require two very rare things to happen to the same person, so the chance of that happing is very very small.

Still not impossible though.

Interesting.

This could be happening a lot in Humans, but we'd never know.

Just imagine, a 15 year old girl gets pregnant, tells everyone it's impossible, she's never had sex... yeah right.. SLUT!... or is she?

[dirtyape]

Interesting.

This could be happening a lot in Humans, but we'd never know.

Just imagine, a 15 year old girl gets pregnant, tells everyone it's impossible, she's never had sex... yeah right.. SLUT!... or is she?

Similarly, it could also have happened to a sexually active woman and even she would be unaware.

[KiLL3r]

just watching the news about the oldest woman in NZ who died and couldnt help have a chuckle at her doctors comments for the reason she lived so long; was because she prayed for 30minutes every night lol

[Zarathrustra]

just watching the news about the oldest woman in NZ who died and couldnt help have a chuckle at her doctors comments for the reason she lived so long; was because she prayed for 30minutes every night lol

Positive thinking

[Bell]

If you were born somewhere else, if empires fell and rose alittle differently, if certain leaders didnt come to power your set of beliefs would most likely be completely different.
Christianty is only so big because they put so much effort into forcing it down other cultures throats for 100s of years.

I have no problem with people who have beliefs based on thier own experiances and thoughts.
But just believing anything a church/group/holy book say without questioning it is dangerous and stupid.
Especially when alot of religons tell you if you don't believe in this or believe in something else bad things will happen to you. Fear shouldn't be a part of it.

[TofuEater]

According to TV3 news tonight, religion beats science because NZ's oldest woman died at 113. I think it was her doctor who reckoned that she'd lived so long because she said her prayers every day - LOL.

[KiLL3r]

just watching the news about the oldest woman in NZ who died and couldnt help have a chuckle at her doctors comments for the reason she lived so long; was because she prayed for 30minutes every night lol

According to TV3 news tonight, religion beats science because NZ's oldest woman died at 113. I think it was her doctor who reckoned that she'd lived so long because she said her prayers every day - LOL.

Orly?